tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post1625102907609586406..comments2024-03-16T05:00:38.826-04:00Comments on Egnorance: On the 50th anniversary of the school prayer banmregnorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comBlogger68125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-69174556393357452322012-07-02T10:54:50.803-04:002012-07-02T10:54:50.803-04:00What did it do then? Enlighten us.
If you read th...<i>What did it do then? Enlighten us.</i><br /><br />If you read the opinion, you'd know that it prohibited school organized prayer, later expanded slightly to include school sponsored prayer.<br /><br />Students are free to pray on their own if they want to. In fact, doing so has been confirmed by case law as a Constitutionally protected right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-77771409241663662592012-07-02T10:52:08.518-04:002012-07-02T10:52:08.518-04:00But Hugo Black was the judge who inserted the Klan...<i>But Hugo Black was the judge who inserted the Klan phrase into case law.</i><br /><br />No, he wasn't. But don't let the facts stand in the way when you are clutching your pearls.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-38854456773767478012012-07-02T10:49:25.065-04:002012-07-02T10:49:25.065-04:00Now, can you please explain to me why it's bec...<i>Now, can you please explain to me why it's become taboo to teach one of the most fundamental concepts of American civics--namely, that our rights are God given? </i><br /><br />Because they aren't. The Constitution specifically states the authority relied upon by the document, and it isn't God.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-68466495974348985462012-06-28T12:50:43.079-04:002012-06-28T12:50:43.079-04:00PS BEST Espresso I have had in my life was in a li...PS BEST Espresso I have had in my life was in a little dumpy joint in Santiago De Cuba. Top notch. Not only a flavour BLAST, but I was wired for hours :P<br />If ever there, look for a tiny place right on the Plaza De Los Armas with the VERY original name 'Cafe Bueno' :P<br />Top notch.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14739783974158130525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-1042414263988565512012-06-28T12:48:12.525-04:002012-06-28T12:48:12.525-04:00I like an espresso too, Oleg.
Usually a double at...I like an espresso too, Oleg. <br />Usually a double at that. <br />They do all that too(at least here in Ontario): Espresso, Mochas, lattes, etc. <br />In all honesty, I usually find the local coffee shops do them best - but Timmy's is a bearable black blast.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14739783974158130525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-79169296023506957252012-06-28T12:17:45.538-04:002012-06-28T12:17:45.538-04:00I have been to a Tim Horton's. The snob that I...I have been to a Tim Horton's. The snob that I am, I still prefer an espresso!oleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11644793385433232819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-64433420560882308242012-06-28T12:03:09.638-04:002012-06-28T12:03:09.638-04:00Oleg,
Victoria is a gorgeous place. No Two ways a...Oleg, <br />Victoria is a gorgeous place. No Two ways about it. <br />When in Canada try 'Tim Horton's'. Much better coffee than Starbucks for a fraction of the price. They are EVERYWHERE. They also make excellent pastries and doughnuts. I have yet to meet an American that does not quickly convert to 'Timmy's' after a stay up this way. <br />And YES, they do tea too (steeped and several types). <br />:P<br />Going to fix a cuppa now you have me thinking of it!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14739783974158130525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-51926891193568290302012-06-28T11:07:21.245-04:002012-06-28T11:07:21.245-04:00Oleg,
They used to drive on the left. All of BC d...Oleg,<br /><br />They used to drive on the left. All of BC did. Then they had to switch.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving_on_the_left#Canada<br /><br />JoeyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-58136980353143161422012-06-28T11:06:30.161-04:002012-06-28T11:06:30.161-04:00As I said, I answered the questions. Now you ackno...As I said, I answered the questions. Now you acknowledge that but complain that the answers are "lame." That's what I said: you don't like them. Tough life, Joey! <br /><br />The third question need not be answered. It started with the wrong premise, that I wish to sanitize the US history by getting rid of religious references in it. Well, I don't. In light of that, I am not sure how I can answer the third question. It doesn't apply to me.oleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11644793385433232819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-10738603269847411472012-06-28T11:03:16.220-04:002012-06-28T11:03:16.220-04:00The answers to your first two were pretty lame.
...The answers to your first two were pretty lame. <br /><br />And you didn't answer the third. It wasn't rhetorical. <br /><br />So no, you haven't answered my questions.<br /><br />JoeyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-77820030291618720532012-06-28T10:59:25.072-04:002012-06-28T10:59:25.072-04:00I have answered your questions, Joey, you just ref...I have answered your questions, Joey, you just refuse to accept the answers. And I take it that your answer won't be forthcoming. No surprise here.oleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11644793385433232819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-91338830753219696572012-06-28T10:58:06.477-04:002012-06-28T10:58:06.477-04:00I'm surprised they don't drive on the left...I'm surprised they don't drive on the left side of the road in Victoria. That's one British town. Easier to find a tea shop than a Starbucks.oleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11644793385433232819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-25838990750309583232012-06-28T10:55:18.934-04:002012-06-28T10:55:18.934-04:00@ Oleg,
You still haven't answered the questi...@ Oleg,<br /><br />You still haven't answered the questions. <br /><br />You're having a very different discussion than Trish and I are having. There's a difference between constitutionality and policy preference. We're talking about one, you're talking about the other. <br /><br />JoeyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-31237154755905755442012-06-28T10:51:13.573-04:002012-06-28T10:51:13.573-04:00"I know, crus, Canada is a quirky country. It..."I know, crus, Canada is a quirky country. Its citizens still love the Monarch, even though the connection is fairly tenuous."<br />LOL <br />This is a mystery to you folks south of the 49th, I know. But it is not 'quirky' to us and the connection is a historical and cultural one. It is also a much stronger connection than most would actually guess. Especially considering the two centuries of American attempts to undermine it. We resist, and grow stronger and richer by the day. Our resolve is strengthened by our observations. <br />Many of my family in Britain tell me 'you are more British than Britain, these days." I believe it. I am also VERY proud of it. <br />Anyway, I am glad you enjoy being here. We have much to offer, and I am sure you would be welcomed. I enjoy being in the States too. I think the contrast of our two crazy but somehow functional systems probably benefits both nations.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14739783974158130525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-8816663275924617252012-06-28T10:50:51.650-04:002012-06-28T10:50:51.650-04:00Joey, here are your answers:
* How would you lik...Joey, here are your answers: <br /><br />* How would you like your children taught that a just law is one the comports with the law of God? <br /><br />My son has gone through college by now and he surely knows all of that, and more. <br /><br />* How much of our history are you will to sacrifice in order to make it God-free?<br /><br />None. I don't want the US history to be rid of references to God. I want it to be truthful. <br /><br />* Will there ever be a point at which you are satisfied?<br /><br />That's a rhetorical question, there is no need to answer it.<br /><br />Your turn.oleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11644793385433232819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-76807959872797079562012-06-28T10:47:37.035-04:002012-06-28T10:47:37.035-04:00LOL, I am not only a bigot, but I am also dishones...LOL, I am not only a bigot, but I am also dishonest! I wonder what crus thinks of tangling with such a low-life. TRISH, you are a hoot. Love you! <br /><br />I don't think the teaching of the Declaration of Independence should be censored at all (you are mistaken on that). And as far as I know, it <i>isn't</i> censored. The students must read the text of the Declaration, God-given rights and all right there. I see no sense in teaching that the rights <i>are</i> God-given—as opposed to <i>framed to be</i> God-given by the founders. There is no basis to state that they are, but it surely should be taught that the founders phrased it that way. And it is taught that way, again as far as I know.oleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11644793385433232819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-66691499772969266002012-06-28T10:43:04.567-04:002012-06-28T10:43:04.567-04:00@ Oleg
I asked you first. Have come courtesy and ...@ Oleg<br /><br />I asked you first. Have come courtesy and answer my questions. <br /><br />There were three of them. <br /><br />"Oleg, I'm not sure if you have kids, but how would you like your children taught that a just law is one the comports with the law of God? That's what King said. How much of our history are you will to sacrifice in order to make it God-free? Will there ever be a point at which you are satisfied?"<br /><br />JoeyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-48513768635397456002012-06-28T10:41:31.904-04:002012-06-28T10:41:31.904-04:00Oleg,
"a bad school is just that: a bad sch...Oleg, <br /><br />"a bad school is just that: a bad school."<br />Oh, I agree. <br />My point was not that prayer makes the school better, but that in my own experience the better schools allow for cultural and religious growth like prayer and have a strong focus on education (ie three R's plus history and science) and are not labs for social engineering experiments of the teachers or government.<br />That simple really. Just an observation - not a conclusion.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14739783974158130525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-31791525969989859492012-06-28T10:41:09.488-04:002012-06-28T10:41:09.488-04:00"Now you're fudging your answers, TRISH. ..."Now you're fudging your answers, TRISH. In your own words, teachers don't actually black out sections of the Declaration of Independence."<br /><br />Ever heard of figurative language? They don't use a black marker. But when the Declaration of Independence becomes unteachable, that's an abomination. <br /><br />"But, again in your won words, if they do not state that our rights come from God then they effectively censor it."<br /><br />Yes, Oleg. That's one of the document's most important concepts. And we don't teach our kids that anymore because overly sensitive people such as yourself throw tantrums and file lawsuits. You've won most of those lawsuits, not because the Constitution supports your point of view, but because a lot of judges who don't care about the Constitution do. And now we can't teach our children the true story of our country because it makes the anti-theists cry. Nice typo ("won") by the way. See, we both make them?<br /><br />"Even you acknowledge that you don't have any evidence that the rights listed in the Declaration are God-given."<br /><br />I never said that they were. I said that teaching as much is not unconstitutional. <br /><br />"Then what would be the basis for a teacher to say that these are God-given rights?"<br /><br />Irrelevant to my point, but I'll answer it anyway. The reason is because it's a part of American civics, and central to our national identity. And you want it eliminated because you're a big baby who can't tolerate other ideas. Which, incidentally, is the definition of a bigot. <br /><br />"And what happens if a student is not a believer?"<br /><br />All students are free to accept or reject Jefferson's words. But again, irrelevant to my point. <br /><br />"Why would that student care to be given a religious instruction in a public school?"<br /><br />I don't care if they "care" to have religious instruction in school. That has no bearing on the constitutionality. <br /><br />"I do not pretend to read your thoughts, TRISH."<br /><br />You think I'm advocating for God-given rights. From the beginning, I have made it clear that it's not a question of whether it's true or not. It's a question of its constitutionality, and thus its legality in public schools. You're still having an argument with something that I have not said. You are jabbing at strawmen. It's impossible to have a constructive conversation with you because my words have to go through the filter of your prejudices. <br /><br />"If what you write is not very coherent then it isn't my problem."<br /><br />My words are perfectly coherent. You're not intellectually honest enough to read them. <br /><br />Here is my final question to you. Is teaching about God-given rights constitutionally permitted in public schools?<br /><br />TRISHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-48336161120494185222012-06-28T10:34:37.418-04:002012-06-28T10:34:37.418-04:00I know, crus, Canada is a quirky country. Its citi...I know, crus, Canada is a quirky country. Its citizens still love the Monarch, even though the connection is fairly tenuous. And I like Canada, actually. Been there twice this year: in BC (as you will recall) and later in Ontario.oleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11644793385433232819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-18395140045235384652012-06-28T10:31:56.578-04:002012-06-28T10:31:56.578-04:00" It may not matter much in Canada, but in th..." It may not matter much in Canada, but in the US the separation of church and state was, is, and will be a big deal."<br />This may well be the key to my mystery, Oleg. We are not a republic, and our constitution and charters are geared toward religious freedom, signed by Christian parliamentarians and Monarchs. Further we do not generally look kindly on ideas that assimilate or eliminate (any) culture or religion. We are not a melting pot. We are a tapestry. <br />Again, dialectics come into play. <br />Red vs Blue. Protestant vs Catholic. Christian vs non-Christian. Religion vs Atheism. Constructs created to divide and rule. These concepts are seen as imperial anachronisms here. <br />Just not an issue here. Our biggest problem with this kind of thing is with the Quebec Separatists and the various issues with policing and crime. <br />As for peer pressure, it isn't an issue with regards to prayer. Quite the contrary, actually. <br />We are more concerned with drug use and promiscuity in peer settings that some sort of 'viral morality'. <br />Besides, forcing kids to pray or pressuring them into it will result in the opposite. Canadians are quite reserved in their patriotism (excepting this Sunday of course!) and faith, at least generally speaking. <br />We try to use honey, not vinegar, to bring in the bees.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14739783974158130525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-37851649977408893632012-06-28T10:28:46.060-04:002012-06-28T10:28:46.060-04:00Well, crus, correlation does not necessarily mean ...Well, crus, correlation does not necessarily mean causation. In fact, in this case it's not even that: anecdotal evidence isn't the same as data. I sympathize with your son's experience in Toronto, but a bad school is just that: a bad school. I can list our own experience with public schools in the US, but I don't think it matters all that much.oleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11644793385433232819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-35891177507907957252012-06-28T10:24:31.722-04:002012-06-28T10:24:31.722-04:00Joey,
I have asked TRISH how she knows that these...Joey,<br /><br />I have asked TRISH how she knows that these rights were "God-given" and <a href="http://egnorance.blogspot.com/2012/06/on-50th-anniversary-of-school-prayer.html?showComment=1340892174053#c6250056866520829907" rel="nofollow">she replied</a> that she didn't. <br /><br />Let me ask you the same question: how do you know that these rights are God-given and not decided by mortal men who then added some rhetorical flourish to their declaration?oleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11644793385433232819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-38934652480646828352012-06-28T10:20:48.362-04:002012-06-28T10:20:48.362-04:00@ Oleg,
We understand that you don't care for...@ Oleg,<br /><br />We understand that you don't care for God given rights. You think it's dumb. The stumbling block is that you don't believe in God. One doesn't make sense with the other.<br /><br />Oleg thinking it's dumb is not the same as unconstitutional. <br /><br />Get it? <br /><br />Here's where atheist partisans become so problematic. They think that because they don't agree with Jefferson's assertion, that the rest of us just have to tailor our history lessons to them. <br /><br />History lessons suffer for it. It would be like teaching kids that Martin Luther King was a great civil rights leader while hiding the fact that he believed that America was failing to live up to Christian ideals. His Christian faith was central, not incidental, to his life's work.<br /><br />I think every January students should study King in his own words: Letter from a Birmingham Jail. <br /><br />Oleg, I'm not sure if you have kids, but how would you like your children taught that a just law is one the comports with the law of God? That's what King said. How much of our history are you will to sacrifice in order to make it God-free? Will there ever be a point at which you are satisfied?<br /><br />JoeyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-61474780606573558862012-06-28T10:17:30.639-04:002012-06-28T10:17:30.639-04:00I should also note the ONLY school my son attended...I should also note the ONLY school my son attended where the staff were largely intolerant of all prayer (permitted, but reluctantly) was in Toronto, and it was by far the WORST school my son attended. <br />It was rife with criminal activity, serious violence, and sectarian strife (especially between Muslims and Sikhs). The school was constantly under lockdown, and the teachers were the most soft headed academics I have ever met in my life. <br />It also held a terrible academic record. I am not sure that the hostility to ALL faiths was the problem, but it sure was a symptom. <br />Needless to say, we got him out of there as fast as we could. He spent a semester in a Catholic school before we moved out of Planet-Toronto and back to Canada (a Canadian joke).Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14739783974158130525noreply@blogger.com