tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post7264312046873051819..comments2024-03-16T05:00:38.826-04:00Comments on Egnorance: The story of the two pacts...mregnorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-48141275241556330242012-02-26T05:16:58.364-05:002012-02-26T05:16:58.364-05:00"Fr. Josef Tiso was a Catholic priest in good..."Fr. Josef Tiso was a Catholic priest in good standing before, during, and after his participation in the Holocaust."<br /><br />a lie.<br /><br />"Pius XII had refused to confirm Tiso's monsignorial title, and had ordered the Vatican's charge d'affaires to protest when the Bratislava parliament passed anti-Jewish legislation in 1941".<br />(Jonathan Luxmoore,Jolanta Babiuch, 'The Vatican and the red flag').<br /><br />"As a result of this disagreement, the Vatican “retired” Tiso's title of monsignor, thereby demoting him."<br />(Phayer, 'The Catholic Church and the Holocaust', p. 14)<br /><br />"...in a series of articles in December 1945, the Communist press went to pains to dissociate Tiso from Catholicism. Front-page lead headlines, with titles such as “The Protest of the Vatican Against Tiso's Policy,” “The Vatican Against Tiso,” and “Tiso Betrayed Even Catholicism,” drove home the point."...<br />(Ramon Felak, 'After Hitler, before Stalin', p. 27).Domicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02108175024624509183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-18732222480296358732012-02-26T04:55:58.573-05:002012-02-26T04:55:58.573-05:00certainly I can not replicate all the lies written...certainly I can not replicate all the lies written by anonymous.<br />Anyway, something about the 'strict practicing Catholic' Himmler...<br /><br />Do you know that the 'strict practicing Catholic' Himmler "was the man who ... compelled tens of thousands of SS men to leave the Church and advocated a public execution of the Pope"?<br /><br />(in 'The order of the death's head: the story of Hitler's SS' by Heinz Höhne, p. 36)Domicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02108175024624509183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-87422643887545215322012-02-26T04:33:54.439-05:002012-02-26T04:33:54.439-05:00Cardinal Pacelli was elected Pope, on 2 March 1939...Cardinal Pacelli was elected Pope, on 2 March 1939. <br />On 4 March Goebells wrote in his diary:<br /><br />"Midday with the Fuehrer. He is considering whether we should abrogate the Concordat with Rome in light of Pacelli's election as Pope."<br /><br />This was Hitler's first reaction at the Pacelli election. How could be Pacelli a friend of the Nazis? <br />Only people who does not kwow history could say that.Domicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02108175024624509183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-64864798603248547422012-02-26T04:23:56.730-05:002012-02-26T04:23:56.730-05:00from Nuremberg process:
RELATIONS OF GERMAN CHURC...from Nuremberg process:<br /><br />RELATIONS OF GERMAN CHURCHES WITH HITLER:<br /><br />http://library2.lawschool.cornell.edu/donovan/pdf/Nuremberg_3/Vol_X_18_04_01.pdfDomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02108175024624509183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-72405543166107814992012-02-25T20:55:09.016-05:002012-02-25T20:55:09.016-05:00[Himmler was a strict practicing Catholic]
Refere...[Himmler was a strict practicing Catholic]<br /><br />References... references.<br /><br />Himmler was a pagan.<br /><br />[His uncle was a Jesuit and a was instrumental in formulating an alliance with the Jesuits and the SS, leading to the creation of an organization within the SS Central Security Service with most of its main posts were held by Catholic priests wearing the black uniform of the SS.]<br /><br />I presume you're referring to the Ustase, which was a Croatian fascist organization prior to and during WWII. They certainly committed war crimes and ran concentration camps (Jasenovac camp). The chief guard at the camp was Morislav Filipovic, who was a Franciscan who was defrocked by the order in 1942 for his crimes.<br /><br />The Ustase certainly were pro-Catholic, and some clergy had uncomfortably close relations with them.<br /><br />There were countless Catholics in Europe at the time. There was almost complete absence of practicing Catholics among leading Nazis. <br /><br />On the other hand, all Communists were atheists, and it's pretty clear that your slander of the Church is a smokescreen divert attention form the intimate relationship between Communism and atheism.mregnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-80919769033598258332012-02-25T20:13:00.110-05:002012-02-25T20:13:00.110-05:00"Not a single leading Nazi was a practicing C..."<i>Not a single leading Nazi was a practicing Catholic, that I know of.</i>"<br /><br />Well, you do have an established track record as an exceedingly ignorant individual, so this isn;t that surprising.<br /><br />Himmler was a strict practicing Catholic, with an exceptionally Catholic upbringing and family. His uncle was a Jesuit and a was instrumental in formulating an alliance with the Jesuits and the SS, leading to the creation of an organization within the SS Central Security Service with most of its main posts were held by Catholic priests wearing the black uniform of the SS.<br /><br />Reinhard Gehlen was devoutly Catholic, and a member in good standing of the Knights of Malta.<br /><br />Franz Von Papen had headed the powerful Catholic "Center Party" and been a close friend of Pope Pius XII from the time that he had been the Papal Nuncio to Germany. Were it not for Papen, President Von Hindenburg might never have been persuaded to make Adolf Hitler Chancellor of Germany. He beame Hitler's first Vice-Chancellor and the Catholic statesman who negotiated the infamous Cordordat of 1933 on behalf of the Nazi government.<br /><br />Yeah, these weren't "practicing Catholic". Your protestations that there wasn't a strong nexus between the Catholic church and Nazi leadership ring hollow when the facts are laid out.<br /><br />Pope Pius XII was quite happy to wield his powerful excommunication tool shortly after World War II to dissuade Italian Catholics from even joining the Communist Party, which was very popular in their country at the time. Yet, throughout the 12 year Nazi reign of terror, not one of the multitude of Nazi leaders who were Roman Catholic was ever excommunicated for their crimes against humanity, no matter how monstrous. Even after the Nazis were out of power, their crimes were laid bare, and they had no ability to retaliate against the Church or its members, the Church took no action.<br /><br />Your Church, despite its claims to the contrary, is a morally bankrupt organization that stood by while Fascists ruled Europe. Scream and wail all you want, but the facts show this to be true. Pretend that the many Fascist leaders weren't Catholic, but when one of them was even a priest in good standing with the Church, your arguments can be seen for the worthless wishful thinking that they are.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-30454539512764893852012-02-25T19:35:21.522-05:002012-02-25T19:35:21.522-05:00Prominent Catholic Nazis: Adolf Hitler, Josef Goeb...Prominent Catholic Nazis: Adolf Hitler, Josef Goebbels, Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich, Heinrich Müller, Klaus Barbie, Franz Von Papen, Reinhard Gehlen, Fritz Thyssen Julius Streicher, and Rudolf Höss. Every single one of them, and millions of other Catholic Germans who willingly participated in the Nazi Regime remained in good standing with the Catholic Church until their death. Not even after several of these men had been arrested and sent to trial for crimes against humanity did the Church take any kind of official action.<br /><br />During the war, the only Germans who the Church threatened to excommunicate were those who advocated cremation of dead bodies. <br /><br />The Catholic Church in the twentieth century seems to have loved fascist dictators. In addition to Adolf Hitler, <i>all</i> of the following fascist leaders were Catholics in good standing throughout their stay in power:<br /><br />Belgium's Leon Degrelle<br />Bohemia-Moravia's Emil Hacha<br />Croatia's Ante Pavelic<br />Italy's Benito Mussolini<br />Portugal's Antonio Salazar<br />Slovakia's Fr. Josef Tiso<br />Spain's Francisco Franco<br />Sudetenland's Konrad Henlein<br />Vichy-France's Pierre Laval<br />Vichy-France's Henry Petain<br /><br />Fr. Josef Tiso was a Catholic priest in good standing before, during, and after his participation in the Holocaust.<br /><br />If you want to get a look at some of Hitler's willing executioners, one need to look no further than his Catholic supporters. And the Church took no action at all against them, even after they were deposed from power.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-43140491087135762142012-02-25T19:08:22.110-05:002012-02-25T19:08:22.110-05:00"Commentor anonymous on the claim (the slande..."<i>Commentor anonymous on the claim (the slander, actually)</i>"<br /><br />It's only slander if it is untrue. Sadly for you, it isn't untrue. It is interesting that your defense of the Catholic Church here is to say "the Soviets did the same thing!" I guess that is your admission that the Catholic Church is morally equivalent to the Soviets.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-48918017742833857792012-02-25T16:47:34.469-05:002012-02-25T16:47:34.469-05:00“And I'd like to see your documentation for th...“And I'd like to see your documentation for the "practicing Catholic" extermination camp commandants.”<br /><br />I have none, I pulled that out of my ass based on something I read or heard some time ago. Per Oleg’s source ~40% catholic or ~60% Protestant would have been more accurate. More accurate still would have been ~95% Christian.<br /><br />When I said running the camps, I didn’t necessarily mean the camp commandants, I meant those actively participating in the operation of the industrial scale genocide machine. <br /><br />To put it simply, being Catholic or Protestant was what kept you out of the extermination camps; while not being Catholic or Protestant put you in the concentration camps. The Holocaust was Christians exterminating non-Christians on a massive scale using eugenics as a rationalization.<br /><br />-KWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-59351163106862225402012-02-25T14:51:57.809-05:002012-02-25T14:51:57.809-05:00You can wiggle all you want, Mike, but even the Na...You can wiggle all you want, Mike, but even the Nazis were self-described Christians. Mostly Protestants with a substantial fraction of Catholics, reflecting the general trends in Germany.oleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11644793385433232819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-27396922792662657982012-02-25T13:42:16.728-05:002012-02-25T13:42:16.728-05:00@oleg:
What's your point? That Germany was an...@oleg:<br /><br />What's your point? That Germany was an historically Christian country, with a large minority Catholic population?<br /><br />That's not news. <br /><br />The question is: <br /><br />1) What are the links (philosophical, doctrinal, cultural, etc) between Christianity and Nazism? <br /><br />2) What are the links between atheism and Nazism?<br /><br />3) What are the links between Christianity and communism?<br /><br />4) What are the links between atheism and communism?<br /><br />Answers:<br /><br />1)Minimal<br /><br />2)Small<br /><br />3)Minimal<br /><br />4)Massivemregnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-1294373811989530082012-02-25T11:44:42.282-05:002012-02-25T11:44:42.282-05:00The German census of May 1939 indicates that 54 pe...The German census of May 1939 indicates that 54 percent of Germans considered themselves Protestant and 40 percent considered themselves Catholic, with only 3.5 percent claiming to be neo-pagan "believers in God," and 1.5 percent unbelievers. <br /><br />Eric Johnson, <i>Nazi terror: the Gestapo, Jews, and ordinary Germans</i>. <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=gmuw9TvbFdUC&pg=PA10" rel="nofollow">Google books</a>.oleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11644793385433232819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-29854088659076959092012-02-25T10:30:58.490-05:002012-02-25T10:30:58.490-05:00Approximately 60% of all Nazis where practicing Ca...Approximately 60% of all Nazis where practicing Catholics. This of course includes those Nazis actually running the extermination camps.<br /><br />-KWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-75819453051501811062012-02-25T08:02:29.064-05:002012-02-25T08:02:29.064-05:00100% Domics.
Try looking up Ghelen or Paperclip, B...100% Domics.<br />Try looking up Ghelen or Paperclip, Bach.<br />Lot's of amnesty and passports handed out that way.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14739783974158130525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-51346949704053827582012-02-25T07:59:39.278-05:002012-02-25T07:59:39.278-05:00LOL Oleg.
Mr Chekov makes his comeback.
Utter non...LOL Oleg.<br />Mr Chekov makes his comeback. <br />Utter nonsense. <br />Maybe Patton was right after all.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14739783974158130525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-58999858467359227822012-02-25T07:55:14.903-05:002012-02-25T07:55:14.903-05:00I always find it VERY rich to see Americans equivo...I always find it VERY rich to see Americans equivocate about Chamberlain. <br />No mention of the Kennedys (like Joe) or other backers. <br />No mention of Isolationism. <br />No mention of the post war Ghelen and Paperclip programs where thousands of the WORST Nazis were employed and made immune from prosecution (or 'vanished' into big corps). <br /><br />Consider what is worse: Bluffing about peace while ordering a QUADRUPLING the strength of your air force and navy and designing contingency, or preaching isolationism (and much worse) while the Reich expands until you're pacific navy is LITERALLY attacked and destroyed killing thousands by the Axis - while it lays moored? <br /><br /><br />The Vatican had a Luger to the temple. <br />London had a massing army of fanatics threatening world war and DECLARED WAR on them. <br />What did you folks have to worry about? Booze and Al Capone? <br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtrOJnpmz6s<br />(WHO is that? Roosevelt?) <br /><br />America? <br />She waited till she was bombed. Why is that? Why is American reluctance to fight seen as 'noble' and 'just', but Chamberlains attempts at delay are seen as 'appeasement' and cowardly. <br />The USA is required to defend only herself (just war), but the UK and her Empire is supposed to defend the Czechs and Poles from the Reich and the Soviets? <br />Try your own standards on for size, Anon. <br />I think you will find they do not fit.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14739783974158130525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-59408871024831249402012-02-25T03:16:17.156-05:002012-02-25T03:16:17.156-05:00"The only other question about the Catholic C..."The only other question about the Catholic Church was the aid it gave to Nazi war criminals in escaping justice"...<br /><br />Not about 'Catholic Church' but about some priests.<br />There is no proof that gerarchy in Rome knew about those facts.<br /><br />There are indeed a lot of material about CIA's involvement and CIA, of course, means the USA governement.<br /><br />https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/97unclass/naziwar.html<br /><br />(for the URSS it's the same)Domicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02108175024624509183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-19950167310163491312012-02-25T03:05:40.898-05:002012-02-25T03:05:40.898-05:00London, 'Jewish Chronicle' March 10, 1939
...London, 'Jewish Chronicle' March 10, 1939<br /><br />POPE PIUS XII<br />DEMOCRACIES APPLAUD CARDINALS' CHOISE<br />WHEN NAZIS ATTACKED MGR PACELLI<br />"Cardinal Pacelli's elevation as Pope in succession to Pius XI has evoked general approval in the democratic countries, where it is believed that he will follow closely in the footsteps of Pius XI and continue the stand against totalitarian attacks on the Church.<br />Among the congratulations receveid are messages frome the Anglo-Jewish Community, the Synagogue Council of America, the Canadian Jewish Congress and the Polish Rabbinical Council.<br />It is widely recalled that the new Pope has shown himself in the past to have shared Pius XI's hostility to Nazi paganism and racialism....<br />The Nazis in Germany appear to have been taken by surprise...<br />It is interesting to recall.. that not very long ago, on January 22, the Voelkisher Beobachter, published picture of Cardinal Pacelli and other Church dignitaries beneath a collective heading of "Agitators in the Vatican against Fascism and National Socialism".<br /><br />(Voelkisher Beobachter was the official organ of the Nazi party).<br /><br />http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/144/copiadiimage4.jpgDomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02108175024624509183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-19644416177918280462012-02-24T17:18:51.383-05:002012-02-24T17:18:51.383-05:00Pre-Barbarossa Russian-German relations were gover...Pre-Barbarossa Russian-German relations were governed by the pact given above. It's hard to think of a more obtuse comment than yours.K T Cathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10259428595745509790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-11950958756598862162012-02-24T16:40:26.143-05:002012-02-24T16:40:26.143-05:00Michael,
I suspect that Pope Pius XII was more mo...Michael,<br /><br />I suspect that Pope Pius XII was more motivated by anti-communism because of his frightening experiences in Munich after World War I, and came to the pragmatic decision that my enemy's enemy, whilst not my friend, isn't as great an enemy.<br /><br />The Concordat was an attempt to ensure the survival of the Catholic Church in Germany by giving up as a sacrifice the centralist Catholic political part. A bad decision, but mirrored in the spineless acquiescence of all the other opposition political parties (save the communists, who were marked out for harsher treatment) to be dissolved.<br /><br />The pope's statements during the war were rather diplomatic. Whether he could have strengthened them and made a difference, I don't know.<br /><br />To give Pope Pius XII credit, he was one of the first public figures, if not the first (and I think he was) to condemn the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Hiroshima might possibly have been justified. Maybe. Perhaps. Nagasaki on the other hand was a definite war crime.<br /><br />The only other question about the Catholic Church was the aid it gave to Nazi war criminals in escaping justice by giving them sanctuary and Vatican passports and allowing them to escape to South America.bachfiendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14752055891882312204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-2337339010652570102012-02-24T15:29:49.876-05:002012-02-24T15:29:49.876-05:00Egnor: Compare the Soviet atheist concordant with ...Egnor: <i>Compare the Soviet atheist concordant with the Nazis and the Vatican's concordant with the Nazis.</i> <br /><br />It's hard to find a more inept example. It was the Soviets who defeated the Nazis. With a little help from the Allies.oleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11644793385433232819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-12100320894359335192012-02-24T15:24:13.830-05:002012-02-24T15:24:13.830-05:00He (Cardinal Pacelli) described the negotiations w...<i>He (Cardinal Pacelli) described the negotiations with the German government as akin to "negotiating with the devil himself".</i><br /><br />I have the same feeling when I read some commenters on this blog. I see the Devil writing in their place!Pépéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00896283600100217146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-59023105638537329552012-02-24T14:03:49.740-05:002012-02-24T14:03:49.740-05:00"Cardinal Pacelli (Vatican diplomat and futur..."<i>Cardinal Pacelli (Vatican diplomat and future Pius XII), on return to Rome following negotiation of the Concordant, told the British Ambassador that "I had to choose between an agreement and the virtual elimination of the Catholic Church in the Reich.</i>"<br /><br />Gee. The same sort of rationale that Chamberlain used when he returned from negotiating with Germany. Except he was a politician and didn't claim that he spoke with moral authority.<br /><br />Nice to see that you are admitting the Catholic church is nothing but a spineless political organization with no moral backbone at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com