tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post7470306155214157866..comments2024-03-16T05:00:38.826-04:00Comments on Egnorance: Jerry Coyne and a really stupid pro-abortion argumentmregnorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-75403629120426813232014-08-26T11:07:53.987-04:002014-08-26T11:07:53.987-04:00Morons. Sleeping people are sentient. They have a ...Morons. Sleeping people are sentient. They have a functional cerebral cortex. An embryo does not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-29909631368977367922013-04-01T21:19:48.956-04:002013-04-01T21:19:48.956-04:00Ilion,
My comment about 'corporations as pers...Ilion,<br /><br />My comment about 'corporations as persons' was concerning the funding of third parties in electoral campaigns in support of one of the candidates, and the distortion it might cause to the results of elections. And the possibility that billionaires might be able to 'buy' elections to obtain policies favouring them, not the broader community.<br /><br />Although, it didn't work in the last presidential election. Karl Rove was very upset that the millions he'd raised and spent on behalf of Romney had so little effect. Although, as a result of media policy, direct spending by the official candidates is much more effective; it's cheaper and the ads can be changed at short notice to react to circumstances - advantages that 3rd party ads don't have.<br /><br />Anyway, if you don't like the legal definition of 'personhood' not applying to 20 weeks gestation foetuses, then campaign to have it changed.<br /><br />Historically, when groups were persecuted it was done by dictatorships both on the right (Nazis, Franco's Nationalists, Chile's Pinochet, the Argentinian Junta) and left (the Soviet Union, Mao's China, Pol Pot, etc). And it wasn't because the groups were declared to be non-persons. It was because the individuals were regarded to be a threat to the ruling ideology.bachfiendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14752055891882312204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-53358762521334479352013-04-01T10:56:06.026-04:002013-04-01T10:56:06.026-04:00hypocritical, lying leftist: "Nice that you e...<b>hypocritical, lying leftist:</b> "<i>Nice that you engage so readily in abuse.</i>"<br /><br />Oh! You poor, abused, whining hypocrite. Where does it hurt?<br /><br /><b>hypocritical, lying leftist:</b> "<i>I'm pleased to be God-damned, because it means nothing bad is going to happen to me.</i>"<br /><br />Aside from the issue of whether being damned-of-God is of any consequence, the lying leftist again demonstrated his disdain for truth. Well, unless 'JH' is his sock-puppet.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-52842472775745107332013-04-01T10:37:37.740-04:002013-04-01T10:37:37.740-04:00lying leftist: "The American Supreme Court ha...<b>lying leftist:</b> "<i>The American Supreme Court has extended the definition of 'person' to include corporations.</i>"<br /><br />Leftists can't be honest about anything, can they?<br /><br />The US SC did not "extended the definition of 'person' to include corporations"; what it did was rule that leftists cannot artificially restrict the already-and-long-established expansion of the definition such that the groups-of-humans-working-in-concert that they like still count as legal persons but that the groups-of-humans-working-in-concert that they don’t like don’t count as legal persons.<br /><br />The <i>legal fiction</i> that bodies of individual persons (hence the name, ‘corporation’) can be united to some common purpose and thus are, in certain contexts, actual persons, is a centuries-old (uniquely) Western concept-and-practice. The ‘corporation’ was developed in the Middle Ages (*), and its obvious benefit quickly lead to its use throughout Latin Christendom.<br /><br />The ‘corporation’ is a major reason why the West – a tiny little sliver of the world, both in territory and in population – was able so quickly to rise to global pre-eminence in any endeavor one wishes to mention.<br /><br /><br />(*) i.e. the ‘corporation’ one more thing for haters-of-Christianity to pointlessly hate the Roman Catholic church about, as it was developed centuries before the Reformation.<br /><br /><b>lying leftist:</b> "<i>Restricting it to [actual] human beings is much more sensible.</i>"<br /><br />No it doesn’t – and, in any event, lying leftists not willing to admit the personhood of a certain body of actual human beings: those not yet born or in the process of being born or who have managed to get born despite that some older person was trying to kill them at the time.<br /><br />Denying or abrogating the legal status as ‘persons’ of human-persons-in-collective is actually a fine old leftist tactic for justifying the mass murders of masses of actual human persons – all one need do is:<br />1) focus on the membership of actual individual human beings in some collective body or group; <br />2) deny the personhood of that <i>corporation</i> of actual individual human beings;<br />2a) thus denying the personhood of the actual individual human beings which comprise the group;<br />3) murder them.<br />This tactic works whether one means to murder the kulaks, or the bourgeoisie, or the “lives unworthy of life”, or the Jews … or the unborn, or the old, or the crippled.<br /><br />===<br />Of course, what this lying leftist *really* meant was “<i>restricting [the definition of ‘person’ such that the groups-of-humans-working-in-concert that we leftist like still count as legal persons, while the groups-of-humans-working-in-concert that we leftist don’t like don’t count as legal persons] is much more sensible.</i>”<br />Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-2147536715158683422013-03-31T04:18:31.904-04:002013-03-31T04:18:31.904-04:00JH,
No. See the Wikipedia article on 'person...JH,<br /><br />No. See the Wikipedia article on 'person'. The American Supreme Court has extended the definition of 'person' to include corporations. Restricting it to human beings is much more sensible.bachfiendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14752055891882312204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-88451826648411219232013-03-31T01:56:41.503-04:002013-03-31T01:56:41.503-04:00@bachfiend: You're confusing "person"...@bachfiend: You're confusing "person" and "human being."<br /><br />@Ilion: Care to explain?<br /><br />-JHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-47120391134058347942013-03-30T20:50:30.270-04:002013-03-30T20:50:30.270-04:00Michael,
'Human' is a biological term. I...Michael,<br /><br />'Human' is a biological term. It's an adjective. It applies to members of Homo sapiens, Homo neanderthalis, Homo erectus, and a few other species. Some biologists want to extend the genus to include common chimpanzees and bonobos, so they also are Homo species.<br /><br />'Human being' is a legal definition. It's the attribution of rights (and responsibilities) to an entity. A 19 week gestation fetus doesn't become 'human' (biologically) at 20 weeks. It becomes a human being (legally, with the inherent rights).<br /><br />Legal definitions can change. They're just a matter of common usage. If you want to make unimplanted fertilized ova human beings, then have the law changed, as they did with the referendum in Mississippi.<br /><br />You keep on assuming that the Colorado Catholic hospital would have lost the malpractice suit. What makes you think that? I'm certain that they would have won. And they should have taken it to court to prove that; 1. They weren't guilty of malpractice, and 2. A 7 month gestation fetus has the legal rights of a person.<br /><br />The three Colorado Catholic bishops were right. You're wrong.<br /><br />Ilion,<br /><br />Nice that you engage so readily in abuse. I'm pleased to be God-damned, because it means nothing bad is going to happen to me.bachfiendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14752055891882312204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-3331430298883340402013-03-30T20:18:52.125-04:002013-03-30T20:18:52.125-04:00I doubt that the hospital even has the authority t...I doubt that the hospital even has the authority to pay out if it has no legal liability. There are bylaws, etc, and giving money away is unlikely to be in the bylaws. <br /><br />Regarding the status of the zygote, you are making a ridiculous unscientific argument. You are asserting that a zygote is not a member of the species that it ... is a member of. If a zygote is not a homo sapiens (a human being), what is it?<br /><br />And could you explain your new biological theory that human beings arise spontaneously from zygotes, at some time (20 weeks) after conception. I'm fascinated by tin-foil hat biology. <br /><br />Whether a zygote is a person-- a human being with legal status-- is another question. But a zygote is obviously a human being. mregnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-63903993055490926562013-03-30T19:41:16.596-04:002013-03-30T19:41:16.596-04:00Michael,
Then we do agree on the grounds that we ...Michael,<br /><br />Then we do agree on the grounds that we do disagree. I still think you're wrong in calling an unimplanted fertilized human ovum a human being. If it's a human being, then the coroner would have to be informed whenever an early spontaneous abortion occurs.<br /><br />You keep on changing how you use 'human'. One sentence - it's a noun. Next sentence - it's an adjective. Agreed; a fertilized human ovum is human, it's alive, so it's 'human life'. But it's not a human (being) or person. It's not a biological definition. It's a legal one. If a 7 month gestation fetus has no legal rights as a person (a human being), then a 20 week gestation fetus also has no legal rights as a person (a human being). And certainly, an unimplanted fertilized human ovum has absolutely no legal rights as a person (human being).<br /><br />You need to be consistent in your arguments.<br /><br />You miss the point. Lawyers represent their clients. They advise their clients as to the tactics they should employ. But, at the end of the day, the client has the say.<br /><br />The Catholic bishops expressed considerable disquiet that a malpractice suit was avoided on a legal technicality. That a 7 month gestation fetus doesn't have the rights of a person. They believe that the case should have been decided on its merits.<br /><br />You seem to assume that the Catholic hospital would have lost the malpractice suit. Actually, I'm certain that they would have won! Considering the facts of the case. bachfiendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14752055891882312204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-52273629275887919172013-03-30T19:04:02.321-04:002013-03-30T19:04:02.321-04:00Human beings are easy to identify. They are a cont...Human beings are easy to identify. They are a continuum, from fertilization to natural death. There is no biological question here.<br /><br />The issue is that pro-aborts believe that it is ok to kill some human beings if the woman (she's not a mother) wants to, for no other reason. Pro-lifers insist that human life be protected from such killing. <br /><br />Regarding the Colorado issue, the legal issue is not the moral issue. If the law does not confer the right to life on 7 month fetuses, then the hospital should not be forced to pay. The hospital's lawyers have legal responsibilities, which they are meeting. The money can certainly be better spent meeting the needs of the patients, and not giving the litigious family and lawyers a big payday. <br /><br />The same reasoning applies to malpractice. A doctor can believe that he should have done better, but if the details of the case don't rise to malpractice, the doctor is under no moral obligation to pay anyone anything. mregnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-11820366542101707882013-03-30T18:52:07.083-04:002013-03-30T18:52:07.083-04:00Michael,
The common ground is that both sides bel...Michael,<br /><br />The common ground is that both sides believe that humans shouldn't be killed without adequate reason (to cover self-defense, justified killing of enemy soldiers in a 'just' war, and so on.<br /><br />The ground of disagreement is over the definition of 'human'. You use 'human' simultaneously as an adjective and a noun, and make no distinction between the two.<br /><br />An unimplanted fertilized human ovum is human (adjective). It isn't a human (noun). It isn't a human being or a person. The law in most states regards human fetuses of 20 weeks gestation as not being humans (human beings or persons). They are obviously human (adjective).<br /><br />To return to Colorado, the state regards a fetus of 7 months gestation as not having the rights of a person. You expressed approval of the lawyers representing a Catholic hospital for using this law to have a malpractice suit dismissed. Three Catholic bishops in Colorado expressed considerable disquiet that this was done.<br /><br />Why are you right and the Catholic bishops wrong (I personally agree with the bishops)?bachfiendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14752055891882312204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-26268483848643124302013-03-30T18:36:36.689-04:002013-03-30T18:36:36.689-04:00Lion,
Why don't you tell a bacteriologist tha...Lion,<br /><br />Why don't you tell a bacteriologist that the object of their study is sentient, and see what reaction you get? I think you won't get any response, because he or she will be too busy rolling around on the floor laughing.<br /><br />Bacteria chemotaxis depends on two mindless automatic forms of locomotion; tumbling and straight line movement. In an environment with an increasing gradient of desired food chemicals, tumbling is inhibited, but it still happens, but less often. Straight line locomotion occurs longer.<br /><br />It's no more sentient than a thermostat sensing the temperature, contracting when it's too hot and breaking a circuit to turn off the heater.<br /><br />Your definition of sentience includes the ability to 'perceive' or 'feel' sensations. That means there has to be a conscious element to the sensation. Bacteria aren't conscious.<br /><br />My definition of sentient would include the ability to react to changes in the environment (bacteria do), to learn from this experience and to do the same thing if it succeeded with similar events (bacteria don't) and to pass this adaptive behavior to future generations, non-genetically (again bacteria fail).<br /><br />Your definition of sentience also includes instinctive behavior. No one sensible would do that.bachfiendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14752055891882312204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-2517348149705910232013-03-30T18:12:19.910-04:002013-03-30T18:12:19.910-04:00Michael,
Pope Pius XII answered your question abo...Michael,<br /><br />Pope Pius XII answered your question about Hiroshima. The nuclear bombing of Hiroshima was a war crime. I agree with him.<br /><br />I think it was Ilion who defined sentience as the ability to feel sensation. An anaesthesised person still has that ability, even if temporarily absent. So too does a person in a coma, unless it's permanent due to irreversible brain damage.<br /><br />An unimplanted fertilized ovum or a fetus of 10 weeks gestation isn't able to feel sensation, isn't sentient, not now, not next week. Whether its OK to dispose of an unwanted unimplanted fertilized ovum or a non-sentient fetus of 10 or 20 weeks gestation is the question.<br /><br />I think it is, because a woman has rights too. To decide what happens to her body. Within limits. And abortion shouldn't be encouraged, since it's a surgical procedure with a risk of complications.bachfiendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14752055891882312204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-49201167158166351202013-03-30T17:44:33.517-04:002013-03-30T17:44:33.517-04:00@JH:
One side believes that all humans have a rig...@JH:<br /><br />One side believes that all humans have a right to life. The other believes that only humans who pass a test have a right to life. <br /><br />Where's the common ground? That we all agree we shouldn't kill people like ourselves? <br /><br />mregnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-62065688753008293892013-03-30T15:48:01.526-04:002013-03-30T15:48:01.526-04:00Watching you all talk past each other is immensely...Watching you all talk past each other is immensely frustrating. If you can't agree on premises, it's pointless to argue about conclusions.<br /><br />Here's the fundamental question: What makes a life worthy of being protected and preserved? For Christians, the criterion seems to be humanity; human life is worth protecting, period. For atheists, the equation seems to be more complicated and involve a number of criteria like intelligence, potential contribution to society, the opinions of their friends and relatives, and some sort of personal pleasure/pain ratio.<br /><br />Now do me a favor and find some common ground before continuing this conversation.<br /><br />-JHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-6731760606346426292013-03-30T15:34:39.412-04:002013-03-30T15:34:39.412-04:00We were "bought at a price" 1 Cor 6:20
...We were "bought at a price" 1 Cor 6:20<br /><br />It helps me keep things in perspective. mregnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-51518617373479858692013-03-30T15:24:35.673-04:002013-03-30T15:24:35.673-04:00@anon:
I'm so embarrassed.
But how about thi...@anon:<br /><br />I'm so embarrassed.<br /><br />But how about this: is it ok to kill an anesthetized adult, or one in a coma?<br /><br />Was it ok to kill Japanese civilians at ground zero in Hiroshima, because they weren't aware and died instantly and didn't suffer?<br /><br />Exactly how does awareness fit into your killing excuses?mregnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-83877898723554044652013-03-30T14:28:04.566-04:002013-03-30T14:28:04.566-04:00Why is killing a 10 week fetus ok, but killing a s...<i>Why is killing a 10 week fetus ok, but killing a sleeping adult not ok?</i><br /><br />Because, despite your lying, a sleeping adult is not non-sentient. You need to look up the definition of sentience. It will help you look less idiotic in the future.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-90287160722363629632013-03-30T13:03:29.717-04:002013-03-30T13:03:29.717-04:00In my experience, when people say things like that...In my experience, when people say things like that to me, what they *really* mean is that they want to be my boyfriend.<br /><br />Sorry, dude: you can't afford me. I've been purchased by Christ, and you just haven't the worth to out-bid him.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-2643356567120894062013-03-30T10:25:21.711-04:002013-03-30T10:25:21.711-04:00I have used alarm clocks. I sometimes get out of b...<i>I have used alarm clocks. I sometimes get out of bed, walk across the room, turn the blaring clock off, crawl back into bed ... and never once wake up.</i><br /><br />Your boyfriend told you?troyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05136662027396943138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-88902181613150081562013-03-30T09:33:07.264-04:002013-03-30T09:33:07.264-04:00Concerning the sub-thread on incestuous "marr...Concerning the sub-thread on incestuous "marriages" -- can you imagine how the "liberals" will freak out when some "evil" rich man figures out that he can "marry" his son, and so pass on the family fortune without the death-tax eating it alive. At the same time, when a Kennedy uses this method, it will be OK.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-16126197957093760272013-03-30T09:25:12.031-04:002013-03-30T09:25:12.031-04:00"Makes you wonder if Egnor has ever used an a..."<i>Makes you wonder if Egnor has ever used an alarm clock ...</i>"<br /><br />I have used alarm clocks. I sometimes get out of bed, walk across the room, turn the blaring clock off, crawl back into bed ... and never once wake up.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-29281335628242652812013-03-30T09:21:31.746-04:002013-03-30T09:21:31.746-04:00You poor, ignorant thing! I said what I said *wit...You poor, ignorant thing! I said what I said *with* bacteria in mind. <br /><br />A bacterium certainly is <i>sentient</i> -- they do, after all, <i>sense</i> and respond to events in their environments: they perceive and approach food, they perceive and flee danger.<br /><br />What bacteria prove is that sentience does not require nerve cells.<br /><br />What a finely honed talent you have for digging yourself in deeper!Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-69355426771364290792013-03-30T09:15:54.980-04:002013-03-30T09:15:54.980-04:00Likewise, is it ok to kill a person who has been a...Likewise, is it ok to kill a person who has been anesthetized? <br /><br />========<br />Of course, these days, even "dead" people who are about to have their vital organs harvested sometimes are anesthetized.Ilíonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339406092961816142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-27470028155095824902013-03-30T09:06:50.761-04:002013-03-30T09:06:50.761-04:00@Lying:
Is it ok to kill a person in a coma?@Lying:<br /><br />Is it ok to kill a person in a coma?mregnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.com