tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post1015377510416746814..comments2024-03-16T05:00:38.826-04:00Comments on Egnorance: Jerry Coyne on the Banality of New Atheismmregnorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-9706272134601768382011-08-25T08:53:08.130-04:002011-08-25T08:53:08.130-04:00Um, I'm not sure what my views on free will or...Um, I'm not sure what my views on free will or determinism have to do with belief or disbelief in a god since they are compatible with many theistic worldviews and are not in any way the reasons for my own lack of belief. A god not showing up and existing is good enough for that.<br /><br />As for what was apparently supposed to be the substance of your last comment, "If determinism is true, the future is set, and you have no choice," it should have already been clear that "choice" is the mechanical process of desire sorting. When you are deciding between chocolate or vanilla, your brain is figuring out what its strongest desire happens to be. We call that "choice." So in terms of my worldview, what you are saying is that the brain doesn't do anything which obviously isn't true.<br /> <br />Again, you didn't put yourself up to my original comment on this topic and you can't hope to somehow circumvent the direct evidential check on how desires actually are. Are the choices you make the result of your strongest desires or not? And did you give yourself your desires in principle? Sorry, you can't do away with that line of questioning with semantics. Determinism is true.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14479224236264150172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-20787976801926588102011-08-25T08:09:26.304-04:002011-08-25T08:09:26.304-04:00@Ben:
If determinism is true, the future is set, ...@Ben:<br /><br />If determinism is true, the future is set, and you have no choice. <br /><br />[If I were confused enough to accept your argument I would sit in place forever and never fulfill any of my desires.]<br /><br />I don't think that your viewpoint even rises to the level of confusion. What you're really doing is mindlessly reciting trendy materialist bullsh*t without facing up to it's self-refutation. You're doing so for the same reason that all atheists hold idiotic views: you are so desperate to banish God that you would rather embrace utter nonsense than allow a divine foot in the door.<br /><br />Pitiful intellectual cowardice.Mike Egnornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-16065974451756676942011-08-25T07:41:32.053-04:002011-08-25T07:41:32.053-04:00If I were confused enough to accept your argument ...If I were confused enough to accept your argument I would sit in place forever and never fulfill any of my desires. Since I'm not confused, I recognize that I want to fulfill my desires and hence there's a reason to do things. Determination or non-determination simply has nothing to do with why I would or wouldn't do things.How was that unclear from what I've already said unless you did not really apply yourself to it and recognize the obvious truth of your own predetermined desires?<br /><br />As biological machines we participate in an already determined future like a computer made up of all physical parts performing operations. Determinism is a conclusion that mostly amounts to information (since we don't actually practically know what exactly that future will be) and it is not the existential crisis many people bizarrely portray it as.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14479224236264150172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-80485133445653514772011-08-25T06:44:49.048-04:002011-08-25T06:44:49.048-04:00@Ben:
If determinism is true, the future is set. ...@Ben:<br /><br />If determinism is true, the future is set. Your 'decision' doesn't alter it. So why do anything?mregnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-50497030392038904012011-08-25T02:26:55.885-04:002011-08-25T02:26:55.885-04:00My comment explains why I wrote my comment already...My comment explains why I wrote my comment already in addition to explaining yours.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14479224236264150172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-80433892598052988802011-08-25T02:24:48.916-04:002011-08-25T02:24:48.916-04:00@Ben:
If determinism is true, why did you write y...@Ben:<br /><br />If determinism is true, why did you write your comment. The future is determined, so your comment would have happened anyway, whether or not you did anything.mregnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-71632887597641199072011-08-25T01:20:57.904-04:002011-08-25T01:20:57.904-04:00Your argument is fallacious in that it is hinged o...Your argument is fallacious in that it is hinged on a desired conclusion. I want x to be true, therefore something that I think supports that must be true. Whether or not moral responsibility is valid is an entirely separate issue from whether we do or don't have free will in the sense that you mean.<br /><br />And it is obvious we don't have free will.<br /><br />In principle we do not choose our desires and the only reason we do anything is because of our desires. Granted, we can cultivate new desires and displace old ones, but that motivation in principle is based yet again on still other previous desires we never chose to put there in the first place. The rational mind is like a pocket calculator sitting unused on a table without desires to run operations. Hence, being coerced by still other deterministic systems is the only meaningful way to say your “free will” is being inhibited. Free will is just a practical frame of reference imbued to coherent individuals in a deterministic world that simply means your deterministic system is free to do as it is going to do. <br /><br />We don’t blame the big bang for everything because we cannot talk to the big bang and mechanically get it to change the behavior of the modern universe. It is much more convenient to talk to you when you fail to process the desire-scape efficiently and normal experience confirms people can be persuaded to change their minds by interacting with them. So you have to do what you want to do and you were going to do that anyway even if you ideologically and incoherently protest. How can you complain? If you shed a tear over having to do what you want to do, you are just needlessly confused.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14479224236264150172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-79848063469309779702011-08-24T19:40:03.405-04:002011-08-24T19:40:03.405-04:00Ethics does just fine without religion, as you can...Ethics does just fine without religion, as you can read from philosophy books. <br /><br />That's a knee slapper! Put down your philosophy books for just a minute honey and look at reality. <br /><br />If nothing exists but the physical there is no such thing as free will (and many evolutionists have admitted as much, albeit hesistantly. However it is what logically follows that philosophy) <br /><br />If you have no free will then all morality and ethics is subjective to the individual and their beliefs are a product of genes and memes. Hitler himself cannot be held responsible for his actions, after all, he didn't have free will. <br /><br />If Darwinism/atheism is true then there is no such thing as ethics. It's a free for all.<br /><br />Get your nose out of your nonsense books and join the real world.ShereneHWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16072876572012354652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-63226406827467683292011-06-24T16:16:15.816-04:002011-06-24T16:16:15.816-04:00Maybe instead of "smug comedians, unemployed ...Maybe instead of "smug comedians, unemployed magicians, and once-upon-a-time scientists" they could try finding some bathshit insane surgeons. Perhaps you could recommend one!Rorynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-30651781531763697602011-06-23T10:17:17.885-04:002011-06-23T10:17:17.885-04:00Excellent posts. Infantile responses, as per usual...Excellent posts. Infantile responses, as per usual, from the Materialists. <br />Good to see you with your own blog!<br />One wonders how they manage to operate a keyboard?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14739783974158130525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-68435856552713899912011-06-23T10:16:40.038-04:002011-06-23T10:16:40.038-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14739783974158130525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-35816489226028051412011-06-22T01:26:18.114-04:002011-06-22T01:26:18.114-04:00What an interesting post. You provide a lot of st...What an interesting post. You provide a lot of standard jokes and gibes some of which could also be directed at Catholics. <br /><br />For example: <br /><br />If there are about 1 billion Catholics and more than 1 billion Sunni Muslims then Catholics lose. (Or perhaps you wish to count differently and include those other Christians---who consider Catholics to be followers of the anti-Christ---as really being on your side.)<br /><br />Of course no one ever sleeps during Mass or is distracted, so Catholics get a clean sweep on staying awake.<br /><br />And we all know that every sermon in every church is unique. For example, I only remember hearing about hiding the light under the bushel once during my religious training.<br /><br />I'm glad that you raised the thorny issue of litigation. Did you know that some of the first litigation in this country (1869) was in Cincinnati because the Protestants and Catholics couldn't agree on which version of the Bible to use in the classroom? Huh, how interesting. Perhaps you could set in the seminars with those nasty little atheists.<br /><br />How about once-upon-a-time priests? Does the name Father---oops, Mr., Corapis ring a bell? He doesn't like attention, does he? What are all those YouTube sermons about anyway? <br /><br />And, as I recall from my old corporate workplace, it was always the same set of people who tried to save me and take me to their meetings. It may not have been accidental.<br /><br />And shouldn't Catholics, with the ultimate truth at their fingertips and a theology that allows a human being to get enough power to forgive sins and alleviate suffering in hell, be packing the seminaries with applicants? But maybe they don't really believe this silly stuff, because the Church is having a very difficult time recruiting.<br /><br />The salient characteristic of the religious life was described by a famous religious poet, TS Eliot. "This is the way the world ends, Not with a bang, but a whimper." Oh, you hollow men.<br /><br />And a final note: If you want to discuss the existence of gods, it is usually considered a good idea to stick to evidence. Is theism right because you hear voices? Is it right because you think that the Bible is divinely inspired? Have you seen verifiable miracles? Do you have any evidence for these things or for your own reasons for being a theist? Can you justify your Catholicism? <br /><br />Note that absolutely none of this need have anything to do with ethical systems. Ethics, as a look in a few philosophy books will reveal in short order, gets along just fine without religion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-9637956281578508982011-06-17T09:56:38.795-04:002011-06-17T09:56:38.795-04:00If Coyne were merely another Dawkins fanboi you...If Coyne were merely another Dawkins fanboi you'd probably attempt to ridicule him for that. Where's the respect?<br /><br />You seem to be missing the point from an atheist's perspective that disbelief in god is pretty boring in and of itself. When popular superstition masquerades as the great distraction from the mundane truth, the mere negative case shouldn't be expected to be terribly profound. It's the banality of a negative position that is only relevant because of the larger culture it happens in. This is just Coyne being honest and human. <br /><br />Maybe you are proud of all your cliche' theistic mellow drama on top of that, but it doesn't speak to Coyne's points and it certainly doesn't speak well of Christianity. The bottom line here is the aftertaste of Christian wishful thinking...that atheism is wrong because it doesn't make you feel good about life. That's not terribly profound either.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14479224236264150172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-20279844676108499432011-06-15T21:49:25.335-04:002011-06-15T21:49:25.335-04:00Very happy to see you with your own blog!
Great po...Very happy to see you with your own blog!<br />Great post as usual (been reading your stuff at evo news and views for years). <br /><br />Keep up the great work.Gary H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16324820645215394691noreply@blogger.com