tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post5549131595712476908..comments2024-03-16T05:00:38.826-04:00Comments on Egnorance: Venerable Paul VImregnorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-15522770851793029172013-01-07T19:38:57.962-05:002013-01-07T19:38:57.962-05:00“Further, a man cannot be a nun or an abbess eithe...“Further, a man cannot be a nun or an abbess either”<br /><br />That’s like saying that women can’t be doctors, but that’s compensated for by the fact that men can’t be nurses. Two wrongs don’t make a right.<br /><br />“The real question, if you want to compare a real 'player' role in the Christian churches is a 'saint'.”<br /><br />Most (all?) saints are only made saints after they are dead. They are only players in your desperate attempt to defend sexism.<br /><br />-KWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-53115988729606273762013-01-07T10:23:28.478-05:002013-01-07T10:23:28.478-05:00I did google her, Hoo. I had never heard of her, o...I did google her, Hoo. I had never heard of her, or perhaps did not recall her name. <br />From one of the first links that I read, it seems she has been the target of hateful sexists nonsense on the New Atheist websites. <br />BTW Very glad to hear you're not a new atheist. <br />I suspected as much, actually. <br />We may not agree on many subjects, but you come off as far too rational for that set. <br />As to your question about the Cardinals: I think you're comparing apples and oranges. A Cardinal is an official appointment in an ancient institution, Smith is simply a thinker on a philosophical subject - a player in the debate. I do not mean to demean her position by noting that, simply to point out that she does not hold any sort of institutional position within a organized religious body granted for a lifelong service to that body.<br />But the question, I believe, is meant to draw attention to the fact that a woman may not be a cardinal. This is true. <br />Further, a man cannot be a nun or an abbess either. <br />These are gender roles within the Church. Is that sexist? <br />I don't see it as such. <br />The real question, if you want to compare a real 'player' role in the Christian churches is a 'saint'.<br />It is still a slanted comparison, as Ms Smith would surely agree. She is no saint. <br />But, can a woman be a saint? Is it permissible for members of the RCC or any orthodox/Catholic Christian church to revere and honour a female saint? Have their been recognized female prophets or visionaries? Do women contribute to the corpus of knowledge gathered by these churches? If the answer is yes, then we must ask ourselves if these honours were extended to a time pre-dating the so called 'sexual revolution' and the actual suffragist period (ie real women's rights). <br />We all know the answers to these questions. <br />Women are revered as saints, they can hold very important positions that men cannot hold, and they have been credited with wondrous works (and even miracles!) by the faithful. <br />Further we know these ideas date back many centuries and that Christians have revered the Blessed Virgin since the earliest days of the faith. There have been many women martyrs, saints, and contributors. <br />Perhaps the truest comparison would be to ask if there has historically ever been any major Catholic figures in history who are women. Women free to express themselves and excel at what they do. Women with power and influence. Surely the answer to this is YES. <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14739783974158130525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-45733704008737099302013-01-07T09:53:53.895-05:002013-01-07T09:53:53.895-05:00Happy New to both of you! I hope the holidays all ...Happy New to both of you! I hope the holidays all went well.<br />Troy, <br />Sure, some people will break solemn oaths. <br />People do bad things. But an oath is an oath and if you actually live by an oath of celibacy, then you are not engaged in ANY sort of sexual lifestyle. <br />Unless you believe being gay is some sort of genetic disorder (ie freaks of nature in English), the CHOICE that has been made is celibacy. A man chooses to be monogamous, a man chooses to live a gay lifestyle, a man chooses to be promiscuous, or a man chooses to be celibate! One cannot be properly called a celibate gay, or a promiscuous monogamist. <br />Rumours and hypocritical attempts at libel mean nothing. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14739783974158130525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-91244483496014735962013-01-07T00:51:47.961-05:002013-01-07T00:51:47.961-05:00The TV screen and the porn industry do not seem to...<i>The TV screen and the porn industry do not seem to be good reference points. If you look at business or academia, you can see women in position of power... Yet the Catholic Church cannot admit women to any position of power whatsoever? It is misogynistic by modern standards.</i><br /><br />One of the things I like about the Church is that it is not run according to what you call modern standards. The priesthood is not properly about power; it's about sacrifice and service. Women have plenty of opportunities (within and outside the Church) to serve and sacrifice, but the Catholic priesthood is not one of them. It has nothing to do with oppressing women, and everything to do with how we understand the priestly vocation.<br /><br />-JHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-76910609182037263822013-01-07T00:40:02.857-05:002013-01-07T00:40:02.857-05:00@Hoo: I've thought about it, and I'm comfo...@Hoo: I've thought about it, and I'm comfortable with the comparison, as far as it goes. My point was that plenty of other religious sects are showing no signs of opening their priesthoods (or equivalent roles) to women. Why are you so sure the Catholic Church will? And why do you care?<br /><br />-JHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-35130695386565390762013-01-06T23:17:50.906-05:002013-01-06T23:17:50.906-05:00JH,
I am not sure what purpose it serves to compa...JH,<br /><br />I am not sure what purpose it serves to compare a mainstream Christian denomination (Catholics) to an extreme religious group (Hasidim). Of the 13 or so million Jews of the world, maybe a quarter million identify as Hasidim. Maybe you should rethink that. <br /><br />HooAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-73767555829213816452013-01-06T22:50:12.978-05:002013-01-06T22:50:12.978-05:00As Gloria Steinem wrote, "there are really no...<i>As Gloria Steinem wrote, "there are really not many jobs that actually require a penis or a vagina, and all other occupations should be open to everyone."<br /><br />There used to be a time when men went to work and women stayed at home. We don't live in such a time anymore. The Catholic Church is a bit too slow to adapt, but adapt it will.</i><br /><br />Interesting. I suppose the Hasidim and Orthodox and Baha'i will be adapting any day now too, right?<br /><br />I also find it interesting how often I hear the Catholic priesthood criticized for not being open to women, but never hear similar complaints about Orthodox Jewish rabbinate, NFL rosters, or Playgirl centerfolds. Seems like these are considered private matters, but people seem to intuit that what happens in the Catholic hierarchy is everyone's business. There's a truth in there somewhere...<br /><br />-JHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-43449591004633634522013-01-06T22:09:28.690-05:002013-01-06T22:09:28.690-05:00I am not a New Atheist, Dr. Egnor. No need to lect...I am not a New Atheist, Dr. Egnor. No need to lecture me about "civil wars" in their circles. <br /><br />I named a prominent New Atheist (Abby Smith). It's now your turn to name one female Cardinal. <br /><br />Best,<br /><br />HooAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-13428138787866063742013-01-06T21:31:17.535-05:002013-01-06T21:31:17.535-05:00Michael,
'Mary?' LOL. She's long de...Michael,<br /><br />'Mary?' LOL. She's long dead, if she ever existed, and isn't capable of filling a position of power within the Catholic Church. The adulation of Mary only started in the 14th century.bachfiendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14752055891882312204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-29915762932917162062013-01-06T21:10:50.020-05:002013-01-06T21:10:50.020-05:00The new atheists have no hierarchy like the RCC, s...The new atheists have no hierarchy like the RCC, so the question makes no sense. But if you are interested in finding out about active female new atheists, here's one example: ERV, aka Abby Smith. Google her. She at one point schooled Mike Behe on the subject of HIV.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-27838079421287293652013-01-06T20:20:50.862-05:002013-01-06T20:20:50.862-05:00@Hoo:
Name the women at the forefront of the New ...@Hoo:<br /><br />Name the women at the forefront of the New Atheist movement.mregnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-88128808389810576092013-01-06T20:19:46.458-05:002013-01-06T20:19:46.458-05:00[Yet the Catholic Church cannot admit women to any...[Yet the Catholic Church cannot admit women to any position of power whatsoever?]<br /><br />Mary?mregnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-85792428005816538232013-01-06T16:38:24.900-05:002013-01-06T16:38:24.900-05:00JH,
True to some extent, but scratch beneath the...JH, <br /><br />True to some extent, but scratch beneath the surface and your argument falls apart. The TV screen and the porn industry do not seem to be good reference points. If you look at business or academia, you can see women in position of power. There are female generals in the US Armed Forces. Margaret Thatcher was the British Prime Minister. Yet the Catholic Church cannot admit women to any position of power whatsoever? It is misogynistic by modern standards. <br /><br />HooAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-69136272579545642232013-01-06T16:30:23.488-05:002013-01-06T16:30:23.488-05:00JH,
As Gloria Steinem wrote, "there are real...JH,<br /><br />As Gloria Steinem wrote, "there are really not many jobs that actually require a penis or a vagina, and all other occupations should be open to everyone." <br /><br />There used to be a time when men went to work and women stayed at home. We don't live in such a time anymore. The Catholic Church is a bit too slow to adapt, but adapt it will. <br /><br />HooAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-57645214018952762772013-01-06T15:53:26.692-05:002013-01-06T15:53:26.692-05:00Clearly the statement is meant to apply to both me...Clearly the statement is meant to apply to both men and women. It is modern secular society - led by MTV, the porn industry, and Planned Parenthood - that objectifies women, not the Catholic Church. "(R)educ(ing) women to mere chattel" is exactly what this encyclical is hoping to prevent.<br /><br />And who better than a celibate priest to instruct the laity on matters of chastity? These "celibate weirdos" often have very good insights into matters of sex and marriage.<br /><br />-JHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-72832169000201772502013-01-06T15:43:29.420-05:002013-01-06T15:43:29.420-05:00Good point, Crusader. I had almost forgotten that ...Good point, Crusader. I had almost forgotten that once you make an oath it is impossible to break it. <br /><br />Happy new yeartroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05136662027396943138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-66009474172727377352013-01-06T15:39:04.980-05:002013-01-06T15:39:04.980-05:00I always wonder about these kinds of statements. W...I always wonder about these kinds of statements. What is your point? Are you saying "Pope So-and-so was gay, therefore Catholic doctrine is wrong?" If so, that's lousy logic. If not, what <b>is</b> your point?<br /><br />-JHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-6701616014025507012013-01-06T15:27:37.328-05:002013-01-06T15:27:37.328-05:00@Hoo:
Clerical celibacy makes no sense. Russian Or...@Hoo:<br /><i>Clerical celibacy makes no sense. Russian Orthodox and the Protestant priests can marry and live a happy family life.</i><br /><br />The practical reason for this practice is that it allows a priest to commit himself and his life fully and forever to his vocation, without the tension experienced by other Christian ministers between liturgical and familial responsibilities. Buddhist monks are also required to be celibate; is that also nonsensical, or is it only nonsensical when Catholics do it?<br /><br />The discipline of priestly celibacy has some exceptions in certain situations, and is subject to change. It's the way the Latin Rite currently handles marriage and ordination, and <a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm" rel="nofollow">there are good reasons for it</a>. Even in the Orthodox church, bishops may not marry. No doubt it is a huge sacrifice to make, and I thank God for the selfless men who make it for the sake of the rest of the Church.<br /><br /><i>Catholic priests lead a life of sexual frustration. No wonder some of them end up molesting children.</i><br /><br />It's just <a href="http://www.themediareport.com/fast-facts/" rel="nofollow">not true</a> that priestly celibacy causes a higher rate of abuse. Put blame where blame is due, make sure priests who <b>do</b> abuse are brought up on charges, and that no one is allowed to cover for them, but please don't make counterfactual claims about abuse being <b>caused</b> by celibacy. It sounds logical to people who accept Freudian ideas about sex, but it isn't borne out by the facts.<br /><br /> <i>Discrimination against women in the hierarchy of the Church is also an archaic feature that makes no sense. If women can be heads of state, why can't they lead a congregation?</i> <br />Women can't celebrate Mass, and men can't be mothers. The Eucharist can't be confected with corn tortillas and apple juice, and people who are born with XY sex chromosomes are men, regardless of how much surgery they've had. It's how we understand God to have ordained things. Call it discrimination if you like; I won't argue. I will simply say that it's discrimination between things that are actually different, and that such discrimination is warranted.<br /><br /> <i>And don't get me started on contraception. Roman Catholics </i>practice<i> birth control. They are just told to rely on the least reliable method: having sex during the woman's infertile days. Prohibition against condoms is silly.</i> <br /><br />The teaching on birth control is pretty complex, and is difficult to accept, I know. It makes a little more sense if you view it in the light of teachings about lifelong chastity (e.g. no masturbation, no fornication, no adultery, no divorce/remarriage.) Following Church teaching on sex is <b>hard</b>, particularly in the modern era.<br /><br />It makes still more sense when viewed in the light of the Catholic understanding of sin as a barrier between a human soul and God. The teaching is not arbitrary; deliberately rendering the sex act sterile (as opposed to abstaining during fertile times) drives a real spiritual wedge between a man, woman, and God during an act that is supposed to be an act of communion. It's not a sin because the Church says so; the Church says so because it's a sin.<br /><br />Personally, I think birth control does encourage unfaithfulness and discourage marital intimacy, but I can't offer any objective evidence for that because the evidence available right now <a href="http://blogs.nd.edu/thecc/2012/08/29/nfp-and-divorce-rates-more-research-needed/" rel="nofollow">is not really ready for prime time</a>. All I have is anecdotal evidence and the impression I get from the people I have known.<br /><br />-JHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-73817829400545737612013-01-06T15:12:44.993-05:002013-01-06T15:12:44.993-05:00“Another effect that gives cause for alarm is that...“Another effect that gives cause for alarm is that a man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and, disregarding her physical and emotional equilibrium, reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires, no longer considering her as his partner whom he should surround with care and affection.”<br /><br />This incredibly sexist statement reduces women to mere chattel. This pathetic fool doesn’t seem to realize that women can enjoy sex too. Of course they never have in his experience. Why anyone would listen to a celibate weirdo on the subject of sexuality is beyond me.<br /><br />-KWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-6497694114330018942013-01-06T14:56:56.490-05:002013-01-06T14:56:56.490-05:00I of course contemplated deleting this garbage. Wh...I of course contemplated deleting this garbage. What vicious slander. I made a point about the Church's stand on contraception-- a profound philosophical, moral and theological issue, and the atheist answer is... well, you see what it is.<br /><br />I think that it's better to leave these comments, so folks can see even more clearly the kind of people who hate the Church.mregnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-15411188487665627882013-01-06T14:54:42.052-05:002013-01-06T14:54:42.052-05:00Crus:
Welcome back, by the way. Sorry I forgot to...Crus:<br /><br />Welcome back, by the way. Sorry I forgot to answer your greeting yesterday. Happy New Year!mregnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-9816305023941041372013-01-06T14:37:58.916-05:002013-01-06T14:37:58.916-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Sydenham_Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02483905190733578079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-9775981205821991942013-01-06T13:29:06.685-05:002013-01-06T13:29:06.685-05:00Thank you for being a good sport, Dr. Egnor. I sho...Thank you for being a good sport, Dr. Egnor. I should say, however, that the Church is not unaware of these recommendations. It received plenty of input during Vatican II. Most of the people consulted recommended to amend the Church teaching on the matters of contraception. In the end, the Pope decided against it. <br /><br />There will be another time. <br /><br />Here is <a href="http://www.churchmilitant.tv/cia/07contraception/53.pdf" rel="nofollow">Patty Crowley's brief memoir</a> for your enjoyment.<br /><br />HooAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-30352673831807519562013-01-06T13:15:02.040-05:002013-01-06T13:15:02.040-05:00The current pope is also gay. He has a very handso...The current pope is also gay. He has a very handsome boyfriend: <a href="http://queeringthechurch.com/2010/09/09/pope-benedicts-boyfriend/" rel="nofollow">Gorgeous George</a>.<br /><br />Ratzinger's effeminate voice is also a bit of a give away. I love it when he speaks Italian with his strong German accent. It reminds me a bit of like <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieutenant_Hubert_Gruber" rel="nofollow">Lieutenant Gruber</a>.<br /><br />I wonder how close he was to Paul VI.<br /><br />troyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05136662027396943138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-47025694205600924312013-01-06T12:38:48.138-05:002013-01-06T12:38:48.138-05:00Not so unsourced as you seem to think.<a href="http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a02tPaulV_Accusations.html" rel="nofollow">Not so unsourced as you seem to think</a>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com