tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post5917148429184496220..comments2024-03-16T05:00:38.826-04:00Comments on Egnorance: Does the discovery of the Higgs boson mean anything?mregnorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-11577713359539189872012-07-16T13:18:39.181-04:002012-07-16T13:18:39.181-04:00The fear has nothing to do with hell.
Of course n...<i>The fear has nothing to do with hell.</i><br /><br />Of course not. It has everything to do with the fear that God might get pissed off at you and send bears to tear you limb from limb.<br /><br />If you have to rule by fear, then you are simply the lead character in <i>The Prince</i>. How very admirable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-79027930142034027592012-07-14T19:38:52.120-04:002012-07-14T19:38:52.120-04:00"But humans are intelligent social animals, w..."But humans are intelligent social animals, who care what happens to other humans, even those we don't know. Humans make meaning for themselves."<br /><br />I think you need to spend some time in Mogadishu.K T Cathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10259428595745509790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-41514124243634743312012-07-14T11:28:21.169-04:002012-07-14T11:28:21.169-04:00A Christian love of God can somewhat be compared t...A Christian love of God can somewhat be compared to a man who loves his wife and is always afraid of hurting her or making her cry. As Dr. Egnor said, it <b>is a relationship of love and gratitude, mixed with fear and trembling</b>. The fear has nothing to do with hell.Pépéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00896283600100217146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-58336546438210681152012-07-13T11:58:52.927-04:002012-07-13T11:58:52.927-04:00Briefly, a Christian's relationship to God is ...<i>Briefly, a Christian's relationship to God is a relationship of love and gratitude, mixed with fear and trembling.</i><br /><br />So, a Christian is like an abused woman and God is her boyfriend who alternately beats her and says how much he loves her.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-66705750654966799412012-07-13T11:54:23.626-04:002012-07-13T11:54:23.626-04:00Mulder,
What I describe as "bullshit" i...Mulder,<br /><br />What I describe as "bullshit" is not KW's assertion that many Christians try to suck up to God to avoid hell. There's truth in that, but there's a lot more to it, which I'll address (in a post) when I can. Briefly, a Christian's relationship to God is a relationship of love and gratitude, mixed with fear and trembling. It's complex. Like the relationship of a child to a mother. There's some sucking up, some love, some defiance,etc. We're human creatures, and we do good stuff and craven stuff. <br /><br />What I meant by "bullshit" is the assertion that man can create meaning in a universe without meaning. If we are purely material creatures, not created in God's image, and if the universe just exists and thus has no intrinsic meaning, we, as parts of the universe, cannot have intrinsic meaning. Nor can we without meaning "create" meaning in any real sense.<br /><br />We can fabricate meaning-- pretend to have and see meaning, but that would be an illusion. <br /><br />If the universe means nothing, we mean nothing.mregnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-84319096945795744182012-07-13T11:44:54.529-04:002012-07-13T11:44:54.529-04:00Egnor: "And the boilerplate atheist retort-- ...Egnor: "And the boilerplate atheist retort-- 'we give life its meaning'--is bullshit. If we are not endowed with meaning, we cannot create meaning."<br /><br />KW: "I’ve heard many Christians say that religion gives their life meaning, but beyond their compulsion to satisfy a vainglorious God’s desire to be worshiped, I have no clue what their talking about. Is that it? Is it really about becoming little worshipers hoping to avoid punishment and get a big prize?"<br /><br />How can that be bullshit? For the people who go through life complacent with not taking advantage of everything that life has to offer, and remaining ignorant miserable people, I'd say OK, maybe not much 'meaning' to their lives. I have asked this before in another thread: Do lower life forms have 'meaning', other than to complete the food chain?<br /><br />I would be very interested to hear responses to KW's statement above.Mulderhttp://muldonia.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-45707667007326780622012-07-13T10:51:26.433-04:002012-07-13T10:51:26.433-04:00Thank you. I look forward to hearing the responses...Thank you. I look forward to hearing the responses.<br /><br />These are genuine questions, not an attempt to be snide. Your answers should help us to understand how you believe atheists think about moraltiy, etc. Or at least how you thought about them at the time you were an atheist.<br /><br />-LAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-23680329348520944422012-07-13T10:14:30.033-04:002012-07-13T10:14:30.033-04:00L,
I don't censor, with rare exceptions. I ha...L,<br /><br />I don't censor, with rare exceptions. I hate censorship. (I censored troy once, because he called me an anti-semite. I deleted his comment and told him off. That's the only time I can recall that I have censored a commentor.) <br /><br />I would censor for physical threats, egregious slander, or gibberish.<br /><br />Otherwise, this a a free territory. <br /><br />Regarding your comments that have disappeared, they may have gone into the spam filter. I don't have any control over what it filters. I don't check it often enough.I'll check, and if comments are in there, I'll free them.mregnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-34236648177459937412012-07-13T09:54:01.099-04:002012-07-13T09:54:01.099-04:00L,
Great questions. I'll post on them.L,<br /><br />Great questions. I'll post on them.mregnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-51382241045383128042012-07-13T09:50:09.117-04:002012-07-13T09:50:09.117-04:00Michael, you used to be an atheist.
You follow th...Michael, you used to be an atheist.<br /><br />You follow the rules of logic.<br /><br />When you were an atheist and followed the rules of logic, consequently, you must have concluded that life had no meaning.<br /><br />Why then did you not murder, steal, and lie to your heart's content as an atheist? Or committ suicide?<br /><br />If there is no meanining, there was no reason you shouldn't have. Right? I assume you didn't do those things though.<br /><br />Were you not being logical or following your own ideas to their logical conclusion? (In which case we have no reason to believe you are doing so now as a Catholic)<br /><br />Were you not really an atheist? (Based on your writings here, I think this is likely)<br /><br />Or did you have some reason (ie meaning) for behaving in a socially acceptable manner and not committing a nihilistically inspired suicide?<br /><br />-LAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-32229663221196055172012-07-13T09:33:37.634-04:002012-07-13T09:33:37.634-04:00Pépé: Dr. Egnor, contra Myers and Coyne, allows ev...Pépé: Dr. Egnor, contra Myers and Coyne, allows everyone to express himself,...<br /><br />I don't think that is accurate. I have had a number of my comments mysteriously disappear. I have also noticed that recently some of Egnor's posts have dropped off the face of the earth. This is his perogative of course, but in my experience there is some selective editing going on.<br /><br />-LAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-68999519841147015072012-07-13T09:03:10.427-04:002012-07-13T09:03:10.427-04:00If we simply make the assumption that things (atom...<i>If we simply make the assumption that things (atoms, cells, tables, onions, people, galaxies etc) have function</i><br /><br />That is a baseless assumption, and where you go wrong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-70061431852850211452012-07-13T09:01:53.468-04:002012-07-13T09:01:53.468-04:00Peepster: I can see why it would bother you that y...Peepster: I can see why it would bother you that you think you can't insult people at Pharyngula. After all, all you have are parroted claims you don't understand and insults.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-18276967576419123092012-07-12T20:48:53.005-04:002012-07-12T20:48:53.005-04:00Oleg,
Okay. Allow me to comment on this limited c...Oleg,<br /><br />Okay. Allow me to comment on this limited concept of teleology that you posited. <br />You suggest all that is needed to understand teleology is a guiding intelligence. You suggest human intelligence as an example. <br /><br />A prime example of what you suggest could be found in reverse engineering. We find a machine in the desert, we have no idea where it came from or who built it - but it clearly has some sort of function. <br />No matter the function, or our success in reverse engineering it, or it's origin - the immediate assumption is that it was designed by an intelligent mind, and seeing as we found it on earth and in a desert we assume that mind to be a human one. <br /><br />The same, on a more simple scale, could be said of a rabbit warren or bear's den discovered by a hunter. <br />The study of the patterns of the den or machinery will lead us to understand it's purpose and give us clues/understanding to the nature of the guiding intelligence that created it. <br />We see the whole plan and know by the very nature of it that this is a designed and functional thing (machine/den) evidently made by an intelligence. <br />In the case of the machine this may be of technological, historical, or even military importance. Even a single part or 'cog' of the machine may prove useful, but the desire is to understand the whole contraption - to learn it's secret. <br />That secret will lay in the reason WHY the machine was made; it's intended overall function. The question of why is helped by studying the 'how' in this case. <br />In the case of the den a naturalist or hunter may be able to come to better understand the nature of the beast that made it and WHY the creature made it. Is it a birthing den? A hunting den? A nightly spot to sleep? These questions are again understood more clearly and are more alluring when we closely examine HOW it was made. We may then apply the same concepts to other dens or machines we may find. <br />Well and fine. <br />But teleology is not limited to things made by men or beasts. <br />These patterns we study also exist in nature itself. in potential and function. <br />Without these recognized patterns (or designs) we would not be able to do proper science, or any sort of philosophy. Nothing would make any sense. <br /> <br />If we simply make the assumption that things (atoms, cells, tables, onions, people, galaxies etc) have function, inherit potential and an end purpose we generally get further. <br />This is how we are able to categorize, study, and understand how the various natural wonders around us work, and in some cases reach into the philosophical realm and deduce WHY they work and to what ultimate end. <br />When teleological thinking is used in the study of nature the result is what we call 'science'.<br />When it is used in the study of philosophy the result is the recognition of meaning and purpose to all things. <br />These combined insights, of course, imply intelligence behind ALL things. <br />It implies that nature itself has a top down design; an over all plan that's outcome is desired by that supreme, guiding, intelligence. <br />That nature of which I speak includes time, space, and all things. Most people call this intelligence 'God'. <br />A∞ΩAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14739783974158130525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-29737813316232599582012-07-12T18:45:48.154-04:002012-07-12T18:45:48.154-04:00@crusadeREX
Utterly predictable responses.
I agr...@crusadeREX<br /><br /><i>Utterly predictable responses.</i><br /><br />I agree 100%! How predictable those ba...rd are...Pépéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00896283600100217146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-30787985799704088622012-07-12T18:05:46.154-04:002012-07-12T18:05:46.154-04:00You couldn't afford it.You couldn't afford it.oleghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11644793385433232819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-70541711673723879762012-07-12T17:27:14.733-04:002012-07-12T17:27:14.733-04:00Get a life!Get a life!Pépéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00896283600100217146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-28375356877075659272012-07-12T17:20:44.876-04:002012-07-12T17:20:44.876-04:00@crusadeREX,
(Maybe I am missing something or som...@crusadeREX,<br /><br /><i>(Maybe I am missing something or someone?)</i><br /><br />The reason is that oleg, as any wise old Indian would tell you in western movies, is that <b>white man speaks with forked tongue!</b><br /><br />Personnaly, I would not buy a used car from him!Pépéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00896283600100217146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-50576125173477848472012-07-12T17:14:23.334-04:002012-07-12T17:14:23.334-04:00Peepster: The only cure for your ailment would be ...Peepster: The only cure for your ailment would be education, but that's too much to ask for.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-43510547135757159772012-07-12T17:13:37.017-04:002012-07-12T17:13:37.017-04:00Peepster: That's a good cover-up for your cowa...Peepster: That's a good cover-up for your cowardice. But it isn't very convincing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-83074166760511494112012-07-12T17:11:39.132-04:002012-07-12T17:11:39.132-04:00@troy,
You really really have tunnel vision, don&...@troy,<br /><br />You really really have tunnel vision, don't you! Unfortunately the only cure for this ailment is death...Pépéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00896283600100217146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-25982699573701694512012-07-12T16:51:13.269-04:002012-07-12T16:51:13.269-04:00Peepster: Although it is probably beyond your capa...Peepster: Although it is probably beyond your capabilities, some people are capable of posting comments on more than one blog. I suspect that you realize that your "arguments" would be shredded into oblivion over there, so you hide here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-71770544701029979052012-07-12T16:41:52.927-04:002012-07-12T16:41:52.927-04:00@Anonymouse,
As I said before, ya! a lot of meani...@Anonymouse,<br /><br />As I said before, ya! a lot of meaningless noises! Why don't you go bug PZ Myers for a change?Pépéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00896283600100217146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-12682599756886196562012-07-12T16:13:14.013-04:002012-07-12T16:13:14.013-04:00It's funny that not a single godless commentor...<i>It's funny that not a single godless commentor has offered a thoughtful reply to the point of the post-- whence meaning if there is no God?</i><br /><br />The real question you have yet to answer is "whence meaning if there is a God", since your arguments about where meaning comes from and what it is eliminate the possibility that God, if such a being exists, could give meaning to anything.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-610619633273779712012-07-12T16:11:32.837-04:002012-07-12T16:11:32.837-04:00Peepster: We already know that you have never had ...Peepster: We already know that you have never had an original idea in your life and all you can do is parrot what others have said, so you don't need to confirm it so obviously.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com