tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post8086236580253511598..comments2024-03-16T05:00:38.826-04:00Comments on Egnorance: Happy Kwanzaamregnorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-83815898901292430592014-01-02T10:14:09.390-05:002014-01-02T10:14:09.390-05:00Crusader, I know you feel having your beliefs ques...Crusader, I know you feel having your beliefs questioned is hostile; you seem to be very sensitive that way. However, I think if you honestly evaluate the comments above you will see most of the hostility is coming from your side of the table.<br /><br />-KW<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-6548903670571190862014-01-02T10:12:12.642-05:002014-01-02T10:12:12.642-05:00I get your point, but Big Rich brought up the Shak...I get your point, but Big Rich brought up the Shakespeare analogy, not me.<br /><br />-KW<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-36561974700034591182014-01-02T10:07:21.150-05:002014-01-02T10:07:21.150-05:00KW:
Your Shakespeare/Lear analogy is flawed.
Th...KW:<br /><br />Your Shakespeare/Lear analogy is flawed. <br /><br />The apt analogy is: 'the issue isn't whether Tacitus is real, that's irrelevant. The question in this context is whether Tiberius is real'.<br /><br />The Gospels make historical claims, as Shakespeare does not. There is no doubt among historians about Jesus' existence, and there is no historical basis (aside from ideological bias) to discredit the supernatural aspects of the Gospels. mregnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431770851694587832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-2703476586372847842014-01-02T10:01:11.386-05:002014-01-02T10:01:11.386-05:00Big Rich, you really haven’t made a single point s...Big Rich, you really haven’t made a single point supporting your case. The meat of your “argument” is an ad hominem attack on me. For instance, the question isn’t whether Shakespeare is real, that’s irellevent. The question in this context is whether King Lear is real.<br /><br />Well, at least you agree the Bible is flawed.<br /><br />-KW<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-33654020241585220062014-01-01T10:38:28.424-05:002014-01-01T10:38:28.424-05:00Looks like my post did not take yesterday...
Oh w...Looks like my post did not take yesterday... <br />Oh well. <br />Best wishes in the New Year to all. <br />Here's a rehash of some of what I had posted. <br />Kwanzaa (isn't in my dictionary, literally speaking) is just another 'new age' cult. There are cults of personality, cults of futurism, cults of matter, cults of wealth, cults of human sacrifice, earth cults, space cults, alien cults, drug cults, eastern cults.... all sorts of cults popping up these days. Kwanzaa is a bloodline cult. A race cult. <br />It has, as the Doctor has noted, one similarity with all these myriad cults. That similarity is notable to a Christian. <br />From a historical point of view it looks as if we're at the pit of a down turn in the cycle (civilization, culture wise). The good news is that a Renaissance is soon in order. The bad news is that it usually takes a very powerful outside force or internal change to cause such a massive change in direction. That kind of force usually results in a significant loss of life. When the water turns over it becomes very fresh, but is extremely cold for quite some time. <br />From a religious perspective I see these groups and their hostility as something of a confirmation. Even a badge of honour. <br />For Christians to be so targeted with contempt and derision; and so relentlessly from so many quarters, we surely must have the adversary's attention! As a soldier, that speaks to opportunity. <br />Lastly I would like to note that given the subject matter, the reaction of some of the more anti-Christian commentators is worth reading through. The hostility noted in the article is palpable in the comments. <br />Well pointed out, Mike. <br />Happy New Year! Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14739783974158130525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-31979432139306568832013-12-31T20:21:23.431-05:002013-12-31T20:21:23.431-05:00Oops, I've just noticed a typo'. Matthew h...Oops, I've just noticed a typo'. Matthew has the wise men visiting Mary and the young child in a house. Not a stable. No Jesus in a manger. Some time after Jesus' birth. Herod ordered the killing of males under the age of two in Bethlehem and coasts.<br /><br />So Matthew is contradicting Luke in having Joseph and Mary continuing to stay in Bethlehem past the week Luke has them there before returning to Nazareth via Jerusalem. Or he forgot to record it, and they returned to Bethlehem later, only to be forced to flee to Egypt. And then when they felt safe enough to return to Judea, they heard that Herod's son was ruling, so they decided Nazareth - first time mentioned in Matthew - was safer.bachfiendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14752055891882312204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-10312839071273217902013-12-31T20:03:38.059-05:002013-12-31T20:03:38.059-05:00Trish,
And anyway, my challenge remains. List ch...Trish,<br /><br />And anyway, my challenge remains. List chronologically the events described in Matthew. Next to it, list chronologically the events described in Luke. Compare. Resolve any differences.<br /><br />Anyway - my original point remains. Certain Christians are upset that a fictional holiday was added to Christmas. Christians did the same thing to the pagans by taking over the festival of the Winter solstice.<br /><br />No one knows when Jesus was born. There was no census anytime near Jesus' birth to give a 'date' as Luke implied. And it would be extremely unusual for people to be required to return to the hometown of one of their ancestors from a varying number of generations (with different names) from around 1000 years earlier (in Matthew 29 generations). I can't be bothered counting them in Luke.<br /><br />And don't claim that one genealogy is that of Joseph and the other of Mary. Matthew finishes with Joseph begat by..., and Luke starts with Joseph son of...bachfiendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14752055891882312204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-76222559815319942212013-12-31T19:43:31.082-05:002013-12-31T19:43:31.082-05:00Trish,
OK, Matthew just states 'wise men'...Trish,<br /><br />OK, Matthew just states 'wise men'. There could have two, three (as in Western Christian tradition to reflect the number of gifts - and they were later given names in the 5th century and made into kings of specified countries) or twelve as in Eastern Christian tradition.<br /><br />The fact remains. Matthew mentions wise men, whom Luke doesn't mention. Wise men following a star would have taken a considerable time to reach Palestine (and one of the traditional wise men is supposed to have come from India).<br /><br />So either Matthew forgot to mention that Joseph and Mary had returned to Bethlehem, and the wise men visited them there, or they stayed in Bethlehem, contradicting Luke.<br /><br />The simplest explanation is that both Luke and Matthew had access to 'Mark', which doesn't include the birth of Jesus, and both wanted to include it in their accounts.<br /><br />The problem was that both Matthew and Luke were Greek speaking Gentiles living outside Palestine who were familiar with the Greek translation of the Judaic texts, which appeared to indicate that the Messiah would be born of a virgin (actually, just a young woman) in Bethlehem (the town of David).<br /><br />And the problem was that Jesus came from Nazareth, so the stories were devised so as to have Jesus born in Bethlehem.bachfiendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14752055891882312204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-52257689240487515072013-12-31T18:21:31.179-05:002013-12-31T18:21:31.179-05:00Where is bigotry in that, TRISH? I am satirizing E...Where is bigotry in that, TRISH? I am satirizing Egnor's ridiculous conspiracy theory, meaning no disrespect to believers in Christ. <br /><br />Try again or acknowledge your error and apologize.<br /><br />HooAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-64433709311964797342013-12-31T18:01:11.328-05:002013-12-31T18:01:11.328-05:00"The nativity scenes which show Jesus in the ..."The nativity scenes which show Jesus in the manger surrounded by the three wise men and the shepherds adulating him is just a fiction, a pastiche, of two contradictory stories."<br /><br />So you're finally admitting that the Magi were not numbered. That's progress. Here's an idea--artists who wanted to depict the scene had to choose a number. That doesn't change the fact that the number is not specified in the Bible. You would know that of course being a leading Bibl;ical scholar who actually knows hardly anything.<br /><br />TRISHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-63162241310630753162013-12-31T17:58:54.400-05:002013-12-31T17:58:54.400-05:00Your only arguments are all straw men, Bachfiend. ...Your only arguments are all straw men, Bachfiend. No one said that Christ was born on December 25th. The Bible isn't specific. I never said that He was born on December 25th.<br /><br />"I suppose, Matthew forgot to mention that Joseph and Mary moved from Nazareth to Bethlehem before the birth of Jesus. Matthew forgot to mention that Joseph, Mary and Jesus went back to Nazareth."<br /><br />Forgot to mention? Sure. The account in Matthew says nothing about Mary and Joseph and where they came from. It simply says that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, from which you wrongly fully assumed that his parents must have been from there which is a non sequiter on your part not a contradiction on the part of evangelist. <br /><br />Here's a clue, Egnor. I wasn't born in the same city that my parents lived in. Telling you where I was born tells you nothing about where they were living at the time. <br /><br />TRISHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-20630586792944278862013-12-31T17:53:47.083-05:002013-12-31T17:53:47.083-05:00"Yeah, the whole world is out to get poor Chr..."Yeah, the whole world is out to get poor Christians. Especially the vast atheist conspiracy."<br /><br />TRISHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-59488494303370408622013-12-31T17:20:16.043-05:002013-12-31T17:20:16.043-05:00Big Rich,
There are no truly ancient manuscripts ...Big Rich,<br /><br />There are no truly ancient manuscripts of the Bible. There are fragments of individual Gospels, including non-canonical ones such as the gospel of Peter, dating from within a few centuries of the life of Jesus.<br /><br />The Bible isn't a single book. It's a collection of separate books, which wasn't agreed upon until the 4th century as being consistent with the orthodoxy which had prevailed. There might be more different versions of the Bible from later on than there are different versions of Shakespeare's works, however the Bible for much of its history was copied by hand, with slight errors progressively creeping in, copy to copy. Mutations without natural selection to winnow out the errors.<br /><br />Shakespeare's works were written after the development of the printing press. The are many different copies, with different editing and formatting, of the same works, which are basically the same works. If typographic errors crept into later editions, it's still possible to go back to copies of earlier editions, and work out where the errors have crept in.bachfiendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14752055891882312204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-3877081460670843312013-12-31T14:26:53.136-05:002013-12-31T14:26:53.136-05:00"Big Rich, It's absolutely true that I am..."Big Rich, It's absolutely true that I am typing these words. I know this because it's happening at this moment under my direct control."<br /><br />Whooooh, deep stuff for such a shallow mind. When tactic one fails, change the subject? At least you don't care how pitifully transparent you are but you really should educate yourself in the topic you're about to step in to keep yourself from looking as as stupid as you have here. I'll agree with you for argument's sake that the Bible is flawed. Shakespeare is flawed. Does that mean Shakespeare didn't exist? Can you really not comprehend how anemic your logic is? I didn't think so. You just parrot what you've heard from the Sam Harris's of the world without ever actually doing a cursory bit of research to see how your throw-away lines actually stand up to the facts. Oh and BTW KDumbya, there are more ancient manuscripts of the Bible than there are for anything the Bard ever penned, and just to help you with your thinking processes, whether or not Jesus was God and whether or not he existed, are two different questions not mutually dependent. Big Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13222433855783705707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-46076403993330661282013-12-31T14:17:58.520-05:002013-12-31T14:17:58.520-05:00Big Rich,
Which of Paul's letters refer to th...Big Rich,<br /><br />Which of Paul's letters refer to the Gospels? About half of the Pauline letters are accepted by biblical scholars to be forgeries, written much later to bolster a disputed theological claim.<br /><br />The Gospels included in the Bible were settled on much later, in the fourth century, as being consistent with the orthodoxy that eventually won over other branches of Christianity, later regarded as heresies. These branches also had their gospels, which have largely not survived save as in fragments or indirectly in criticisms by the early church fathers in the 1st century.bachfiendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14752055891882312204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-70772394236898868052013-12-31T14:13:59.638-05:002013-12-31T14:13:59.638-05:00TRISH,
If I have ever exhibited anti-Christian b...TRISH, <br /><br />If I have ever exhibited anti-Christian bigotry, give us a quote. Else, apologize for an unsubstantiated accusation of bigotry. <br /><br />HooAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-46585784694438816592013-12-31T14:04:12.247-05:002013-12-31T14:04:12.247-05:00Megnor,
Really? The Gospels were written outside...Megnor,<br /><br />Really? The Gospels were written outside of Palestine by Greek speaking Gentiles in Greek. The destruction of the temple in Jerusalem wasn't a seminal event for them. It's like claiming that an account of the Vietnam war written in 2010 has to also include a description of 9/11.<br /><br />And the pool near the Sheep Gate in Jerusalem? How do you know that John didn't have access to a text describing Jerusalem? Or that pools near sheep gates weren't just a fairly common feature of towns of the era?bachfiendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14752055891882312204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-71925105714975571512013-12-31T13:53:07.070-05:002013-12-31T13:53:07.070-05:00Trish,
I read the account in Matthew. I read the...Trish,<br /><br />I read the account in Matthew. I read the account in Luke. Why don't you do the same? List the events recorded in Matthew in chronological order. Next to that list the events recorded in Luke, also in chronological order. Compare. What do you have to add to the accounts to make the accounts consistent?<br /><br />I suppose, Matthew forgot to mention that Joseph and Mary moved from Nazareth to Bethlehem before the birth of Jesus. Matthew forgot to mention that Joseph, Mary and Jesus went back to Nazareth. When Herod sent the wise men to Bethlehem, Matthew forgot to mention that the wise men then managed to find their way to Nazareth. Matthew forgot to mention that Herod when he ordered the murder of all males under 2 in Bethlehem also included Nazareth, a massacre that Josephus forgot to mention in his history (Josephus was otherwise meticulous in recording Herod's crimes). Matthew forgot to mention that when Joseph and Mary were returning to Palestine from Egypt, that Nazareth was their hometown, not Bethlehem.<br /><br />I didn't have any immediate reaction to Kwanzaa. I have regarded Christmas to be a secular holiday. I have for decades. Some Christian churches don't celebrate Christmas because it's non-biblical.<br /><br />Where's your evidence that Jesus was born around the Winter solstice, and that Christianity didn't just take over a pagan festival (as it also did in taking over pagan temples to build its churches)?<br /><br />A lot of Christmas traditions are just pagan or commercial.<br /><br />I'm just bemused that Christians are upset about someone adding a fictional holiday to Christmas, when Christians did much the same thing with the pagan festival for the Winter solstice.<br /><br />The nativity scenes which show Jesus in the manger surrounded by the three wise men and the shepherds adulating him is just a fiction, a pastiche, of two contradictory stories.bachfiendhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14752055891882312204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-22369840267042713562013-12-31T12:38:34.082-05:002013-12-31T12:38:34.082-05:00Popeye: "A quick Google finds many hundreds o...Popeye: "A quick Google finds many hundreds of factoids that support my argument."<br /><br />For once, Popeye, we agree.<br /><br />factoid: a questionable or spurious (unverified, false, or fabricated) statement presented as a fact, but without supporting evidence (wiki); an invented fact believed to be true because it appears in print (Merriam-Webster)<br /><br />And yes, apologetics do take real effort and commitment (and facts).Adm. G Boggs, Glenbeckistan Navynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-44806837502567152132013-12-31T12:37:22.691-05:002013-12-31T12:37:22.691-05:00I should say in Hoo's mind. They're practi...I should say in Hoo's mind. They're practically an echo of each other, two anti-Christian bigots. <br /><br />TRISH Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-30255543139072829192013-12-31T12:35:27.878-05:002013-12-31T12:35:27.878-05:00Murder and discrimination are not really oppressio...Murder and discrimination are not really oppression in KW's mind, if the victims are Christian. To him true oppression is a manger scene at the court house. <br /><br />TRISH Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-18769963690458416572013-12-31T12:05:51.015-05:002013-12-31T12:05:51.015-05:00Christians are murdered in Muslim countries and di...Christians are murdered in Muslim countries and discriminated against in the post-Christian West. It's not a vast conspiracy it's just bigotry. You're a prime example of that bigotry.<br /><br />JQ Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-89741845411536106092013-12-31T11:30:07.571-05:002013-12-31T11:30:07.571-05:00A quick Google finds many hundreds of factoids tha...A quick Google finds many hundreds of factoids that support my argument. It doesn't take much to see how deeply flawed the Bible is. The twisted arguments of apologetics is what takes real effort and commitment.<br /><br />-KWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-39682307720191080102013-12-31T11:24:43.616-05:002013-12-31T11:24:43.616-05:00Apparently, you were right.Apparently, you were right.Adm. G Boggs, Glenbeckistan Navynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3555199390227912207.post-49566559420660140222013-12-31T11:19:29.702-05:002013-12-31T11:19:29.702-05:00Big Rich, It's absolutely true that I am typin...Big Rich, It's absolutely true that I am typing these words. I know this because it's happening at this moment under my direct control. You on the other hand can't be so sure. It would be reasonable for you to be believe me, but your distance in space and time forces you to evaluate the evidence for my claim and and determine the probability that it is true.<br /><br />Parts of the gospels are clearly fiction. How in the world did it take 50-80 years (50, 70, 80 it hardly matters to my argument) for anyone to write about the three hours of darkness, the earthquake, the zombie saints that“appeared to many”, or the “multitudes” allegedly healed by Jesus. I don't see how an honest evaluation of the evidence can lead anyone to believe that the events described actually happened. There are to many historical inaccuracies, scientific inaccuracies, and contradictions for me to believe the gospels are in any way authoritative, and outside of the gospels there's virtually nothing.<br /><br />Believe what you want, but I can rest assured, it's not me who's astoundingly stupid.<br /><br />-KWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com