I knew this gay guy once who told me that he'd been in the Boy Scouts in the 70's and he used to give BJ's at camp. He said that plenty of "straight" boys enjoyed his services, and all of them were terrified that the other "straight" boys would find out. I thought to myself, you know, that's kind of the reason why we don't want homosexuals in the BSA.
Anyway, the rule change doesn't apply to adult leaders, so I don't see inequality of power aspect, though I don't expect this compromise to last long. In a few short years we'll have gay scoutmasters too.
There is a real power structure among the boys. The older boys hold positions of authority such as patrol leaders. 17 year olds supervise 12 year olds.
There have always been gays in scouting. I knew a few (four) -- scoutmasters and administrators-- when I was a scout. They didn't do anything wrong, as far as I know. They were good leaders and the boys liked them a lot.
The issue here is not about a 'ban' on gays in scouting. There never really has been a 'ban" on gays themselves. Millions of gay boys and men have been associated with scouting.
The ban has been on exposing the boys to overt homosexuality. The ban has been on the gay agenda, not on gays.
Now the ban on the gay agenda is lifted. Hilarity, and other things, will ensue.
Just because gays where in the Boy Scouts and military while the there was a ban in place doesn’t mean there wasn’t really a ban in place. Thousands of soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines where discharged from the military after being found out or admitting they’re gay.
You imply that allowing gays to serve in the military or participate in the scouts openly will increase the number of male and male sexual assaults as if being allowed to serve openly is license to rape. This is absurd. If anything, the rise in reporting of male on male sexual assault is a positive result of ending don’t ask don’t tell.
As the article you link to states “One of the reasons people commit sexual assault is to put people in their place, to drive them out,’ Mic Hunter, author of ‘Honor Betrayed: Sexual Abuse in America’s Military’, said. ‘Sexual assault isn’t about sex, it’s about violence.” The unfortunate soldier in the article you linked too was sexually assaulted precisely because he was perceived as a “commie faggot”. His assailants where almost certainly not gay. I would bet that the assailants where Christian gay-haters who sodomized him with some object.
My points stand. There never was a scout ban on gays that was enforced. There was a moral statement that gay advocacy (implied or explicit) would no be tolerated.
I find it ironic that you pretend to be horrified by the homosexual molestation of boys and teens in the Catholic Church, but you endorse overtly endangering boys in the scouts.
And please don't write the IRS to investigate me because I said this.
KW, you've outdone yourself on the Incoherence Scale. Congratulations! I've rarely seen a more impressive display of concatenated talking points.
By the way, the "Sexual assault isn’t about sex, it’s about violence." meme is bullshit. If it were about violence, it's easier to just beat someone down with a crowbar.
I was a nuclear reactor operator on an aircraft carrier. Our reactor department birthing had about 375 racks, almost all nukes. The exception was a corner of birthing we called “the Castro”, because effeminate sailors from many departments where birthed there. For their own safety, they where put in with the nukes because we where the smartest most educated enlisted men on the ship, and not surprisingly, the most tolerant.
The vast majority of male on male sexual assault in the military is perpetrated precisely because it allows the perpetrators to commit acts of extreme violence and humiliation and get away with it as it likely to go unreported.
I'm confused about the "it" in this sentence. It's slightly disjointed. Explain what you mean.
If sexual assualt isn't about sex, but rather violence, why aren't there any gay men sexually assaulting women?
For their own safety, they where put in with the nukes because we where the smartest most educated enlisted men on the ship, and not surprisingly, the most tolerant.
Where do you get this crap, KW? Gays can be as smart or unsmart, as educated or uneducated as anybody else. This notion that they're better than other people is nothing but propaganda.
And as far as tolerance goes, have you seen how they handle dissenting opinions? Dan Savage is not tolerant. Perez Hilton is not tolerant. They may be the least tolerant people I've ever met in my life.
Butt rape of males by non-homosexual males is much more common than you appear to think. It's standard practice in war zones, such as former Yugoslavia and the Congo. And of course in prisons all over the world.
In some parts of the world, especially Muslim parts, it's common for straight males to fuck young men to get some relieve, for lack of available women and/or fear of their male relatives.
Have you never fucked your wife or girlfriend in the ass? It's a much used method of birth control. I'm not sure if the Pope approves though.
Are you trying to tell me that a guy who does another guy to "get some relieve (sic)" is straight as an arrow? Or is he maybe a little bit queer and not willing to admit it?
I wish you knew how you sounded, KW. That's like saying plenty of non-child molesters molest children. No, all adults who molest children are child molesters.
Troy, What a disgusting rant. You must really learn to express yourself in a better manner. You should also work on your logic skills, they are sorely lacking. Start with 2+2, maybe.
That link to the increase of male rapes is absurd. Just look at the last line.
"It’s hard to find sympathy for someone who was prepared to kill for something as idiotic as their country, but it seems he was ignorant/naive of the sort of people he was joining and it’s good that he has spoken out."
It also quoted Aaron Belkin of the Palm Center, a homosexual organization, who--surprise!--thinks that the repeal of DADT will help the military deal with this issue because soldiers will be more likely to report it. He doesn't say why. As if being raped is any less shameful now. He doesn't explain why 110 men reported being raped last year, up three fold from 2007. DADT was in place in 2007, but not in 2012. Hmmm...can we say I told you so?
The whole story sounds fishy, or at least that it's only one side of the story.
I also have my doubts about the veracity of this article, at least the guy's story. I don't doubt that male-on-male rape has increased in recent years. If you read the story, there's the unfortunate appearance of the word "allegedly."
Newsflash. The guy in the military or in prison who is raping you into submission is NOT a member of a gay pride organization, is not an interior decorator and is not promoting the "gay agenda". He is forcibly raping you for the same reason he would forcibly rape a woman - to establish dominance.
There are several people on this thread who claim to be military or ex military. Tell me I'm wrong.
Typical Egnorance hate propaganda.
But then what do we expect from a blog that spends so much time defending an organization guilty of 1500+ years of institutionally-protected buggery and child abuse.
Look at THAT wonderful track record of banning homosexuality. See how well that turned out? Prohibition and the US War on Drugs are grand success stories compared to the Catholic Church's policies toward homosexuality.
"There are several people on this thread who claim to be military or ex military. Tell me I'm wrong."
Rape is a common occurrence during war. We do what we can to control such horrors, but can only do so for our own forces. Even then, though rare, it is usually punitive and after the fact. The enemy must monitor themselves. In the current conflict the enemy's controls are non existent. As for rape being about violence and dominance, I would actually agree. The rapist is not merely a deviant who enjoys perverted (consensual) sexual practices. A rapist is a kind that is aroused by predatory practices. They are sexual sadists. That said, homosexual rape is obviously homosexual in nature. One cannot divorce the rape of a woman from the heterosexual act, and one cannot divorce homosexual rape from the homosexual act. A rapist may be satisfied by both, or a specific type. Often it is children, and as we see with many paedophiles they begin with one sex and then move onto the other. My problem with the openly gay servicemen is not about rape. It is about morale. Sex should not come into it. Focus is required in military circles, this is a stupid distraction. I mean what is next? Cross dressing officers? Don't ask don't tell could simply have been upgraded to 'Don't ask, don't tell, don't dismiss when some informant tries to blackmail'.
The whole debate seems like hypocrisy to this soldier. I want the best man for the work involved. I don't really care how he gets off. That's between him and God. Hypocrisy indeed, especially from a military (the US) that has in the past promoted SATANISTS to high levels in the intelligence departments. It's okay to drink piss and blood, praise Satan, be accused of human sacrifice and holding orgies; to get up to God knows what.... but better not be a puff? I can tell you very easily who I would rather have at my back during on an operation. I have served with obviously gay men who were hard, efficient, loyal brothers. I have buried one, too. I pray that God sees his good deeds and forgives him his flaws. Indeed, I pray the same for myself (different flaws). My two cents.
Nope, nothing really to say. You reinforced what I said. I wasn't referring to rape of the vanquished by the victors, but was referring to rape as a form of dominance between men who are otherwise heterosexual - a practice not unheard of in the military and very common on prison.
Thank you for your contribution to my point.
As to your friend who you buried - his being gay is no more of a "flaw" than if he pale skin and red hair. It is your interpretation that turns it into a "flaw". Hopefully you're capable of stepping beyond moral interpretations designed back when slavery and torture were acceptable, and can see that he is no more flawed than you.
Thank you for your service, particularly on this day of remembrance.
The Catholic Church never "banned" homosexuality. It correctly identified homosexual acts as sinful. Over the past 50 years in the US and Europe, the Church's view of homosexuality as sinful has waned, and homosexuality has become much more mainstream.
AIDS, STD's on an historic scale, and millions of preventable deaths related to homosexual conduct have ensued.
I knew this gay guy once who told me that he'd been in the Boy Scouts in the 70's and he used to give BJ's at camp. He said that plenty of "straight" boys enjoyed his services, and all of them were terrified that the other "straight" boys would find out. I thought to myself, you know, that's kind of the reason why we don't want homosexuals in the BSA.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, the rule change doesn't apply to adult leaders, so I don't see inequality of power aspect, though I don't expect this compromise to last long. In a few short years we'll have gay scoutmasters too.
Ben
Ben,
DeleteThere is a real power structure among the boys. The older boys hold positions of authority such as patrol leaders. 17 year olds supervise 12 year olds.
There have always been gays in scouting. I knew a few (four) -- scoutmasters and administrators-- when I was a scout. They didn't do anything wrong, as far as I know. They were good leaders and the boys liked them a lot.
The issue here is not about a 'ban' on gays in scouting. There never really has been a 'ban" on gays themselves. Millions of gay boys and men have been associated with scouting.
The ban has been on exposing the boys to overt homosexuality. The ban has been on the gay agenda, not on gays.
Now the ban on the gay agenda is lifted. Hilarity, and other things, will ensue.
I wonder who will be awarded the very first merit badges for Flower Arranging or Interior Decorating?
ReplyDeleteYour logic is flawed beyond belief.
ReplyDeleteJust because gays where in the Boy Scouts and military while the there was a ban in place doesn’t mean there wasn’t really a ban in place. Thousands of soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines where discharged from the military after being found out or admitting they’re gay.
You imply that allowing gays to serve in the military or participate in the scouts openly will increase the number of male and male sexual assaults as if being allowed to serve openly is license to rape. This is absurd. If anything, the rise in reporting of male on male sexual assault is a positive result of ending don’t ask don’t tell.
As the article you link to states “One of the reasons people commit sexual assault is to put people in their place, to drive them out,’ Mic Hunter, author of ‘Honor Betrayed: Sexual Abuse in America’s Military’, said. ‘Sexual assault isn’t about sex, it’s about violence.” The unfortunate soldier in the article you linked too was sexually assaulted precisely because he was perceived as a “commie faggot”. His assailants where almost certainly not gay. I would bet that the assailants where Christian gay-haters who sodomized him with some object.
-KW
KW:
DeleteMy points stand. There never was a scout ban on gays that was enforced. There was a moral statement that gay advocacy (implied or explicit) would no be tolerated.
I find it ironic that you pretend to be horrified by the homosexual molestation of boys and teens in the Catholic Church, but you endorse overtly endangering boys in the scouts.
And please don't write the IRS to investigate me because I said this.
KW, you've outdone yourself on the Incoherence Scale. Congratulations! I've rarely seen a more impressive display of concatenated talking points.
DeleteBy the way, the "Sexual assault isn’t about sex, it’s about violence." meme is bullshit. If it were about violence, it's easier to just beat someone down with a crowbar.
I was a nuclear reactor operator on an aircraft carrier. Our reactor department birthing had about 375 racks, almost all nukes. The exception was a corner of birthing we called “the Castro”, because effeminate sailors from many departments where birthed there. For their own safety, they where put in with the nukes because we where the smartest most educated enlisted men on the ship, and not surprisingly, the most tolerant.
Delete-KW
The vast majority of male on male sexual assault in the military is perpetrated precisely because it allows the perpetrators to commit acts of extreme violence and humiliation and get away with it as it likely to go unreported.
DeleteI'm confused about the "it" in this sentence. It's slightly disjointed. Explain what you mean.
If sexual assualt isn't about sex, but rather violence, why aren't there any gay men sexually assaulting women?
For their own safety, they where put in with the nukes because we where the smartest most educated enlisted men on the ship, and not surprisingly, the most tolerant.
Where do you get this crap, KW? Gays can be as smart or unsmart, as educated or uneducated as anybody else. This notion that they're better than other people is nothing but propaganda.
And as far as tolerance goes, have you seen how they handle dissenting opinions? Dan Savage is not tolerant. Perez Hilton is not tolerant. They may be the least tolerant people I've ever met in my life.
Ben
You're incredibly naive, Joey.
DeleteButt rape of males by non-homosexual males is much more common than you appear to think. It's standard practice in war zones, such as former Yugoslavia and the Congo. And of course in prisons all over the world.
In some parts of the world, especially Muslim parts, it's common for straight males to fuck young men to get some relieve, for lack of available women and/or fear of their male relatives.
Have you never fucked your wife or girlfriend in the ass? It's a much used method of birth control. I'm not sure if the Pope approves though.
guys who buttrape other guys are homosexual by definition. one hundred percent of them are homosexual.
Deletenaidoo
Ditto what Naidoo said.
DeleteJoey, if men who rape men aren't really homosexuals, does that mean that men who rape women aren't really heterosexual?
You still can't get your mind around the idea that being a homosexual is about behavior. You're incredibly naive.
Joey
Are you trying to tell me that a guy who does another guy to "get some relieve (sic)" is straight as an arrow? Or is he maybe a little bit queer and not willing to admit it?
DeleteAnswer: He's a lot queer.
Joey
I wish you knew how you sounded, KW. That's like saying plenty of non-child molesters molest children. No, all adults who molest children are child molesters.
Delete--Francisca S.
Troy,
DeleteWhat a disgusting rant. You must really learn to express yourself in a better manner. You should also work on your logic skills, they are sorely lacking. Start with 2+2, maybe.
What, exactly, was "homophobic" in my comment?
ReplyDeleteThat link to the increase of male rapes is absurd. Just look at the last line.
ReplyDelete"It’s hard to find sympathy for someone who was prepared to kill for something as idiotic as their country, but it seems he was ignorant/naive of the sort of people he was joining and it’s good that he has spoken out."
It also quoted Aaron Belkin of the Palm Center, a homosexual organization, who--surprise!--thinks that the repeal of DADT will help the military deal with this issue because soldiers will be more likely to report it. He doesn't say why. As if being raped is any less shameful now. He doesn't explain why 110 men reported being raped last year, up three fold from 2007. DADT was in place in 2007, but not in 2012. Hmmm...can we say I told you so?
The whole story sounds fishy, or at least that it's only one side of the story.
TRISH
I also have my doubts about the veracity of this article, at least the guy's story. I don't doubt that male-on-male rape has increased in recent years. If you read the story, there's the unfortunate appearance of the word "allegedly."
DeleteJoey
Newsflash. The guy in the military or in prison who is raping you into submission is NOT a member of a gay pride organization, is not an interior decorator and is not promoting the "gay agenda". He is forcibly raping you for the same reason he would forcibly rape a woman - to establish dominance.
ReplyDeleteThere are several people on this thread who claim to be military or ex military. Tell me I'm wrong.
Typical Egnorance hate propaganda.
But then what do we expect from a blog that spends so much time defending an organization guilty of 1500+ years of institutionally-protected buggery and child abuse.
Look at THAT wonderful track record of banning homosexuality. See how well that turned out? Prohibition and the US War on Drugs are grand success stories compared to the Catholic Church's policies toward homosexuality.
"There are several people on this thread who claim to be military or ex military. Tell me I'm wrong."
DeleteRape is a common occurrence during war.
We do what we can to control such horrors, but can only do so for our own forces. Even then, though rare, it is usually punitive and after the fact.
The enemy must monitor themselves. In the current conflict the enemy's controls are non existent.
As for rape being about violence and dominance, I would actually agree. The rapist is not merely a deviant who enjoys perverted (consensual) sexual practices. A rapist is a kind that is aroused by predatory practices. They are sexual sadists.
That said, homosexual rape is obviously homosexual in nature. One cannot divorce the rape of a woman from the heterosexual act, and one cannot divorce homosexual rape from the homosexual act. A rapist may be satisfied by both, or a specific type. Often it is children, and as we see with many paedophiles they begin with one sex and then move onto the other.
My problem with the openly gay servicemen is not about rape. It is about morale. Sex should not come into it. Focus is required in military circles, this is a stupid distraction. I mean what is next? Cross dressing officers? Don't ask don't tell could simply have been upgraded to 'Don't ask, don't tell, don't dismiss when some informant tries to blackmail'.
The whole debate seems like hypocrisy to this soldier. I want the best man for the work involved. I don't really care how he gets off. That's between him and God.
Hypocrisy indeed, especially from a military (the US) that has in the past promoted SATANISTS to high levels in the intelligence departments. It's okay to drink piss and blood, praise Satan, be accused of human sacrifice and holding orgies; to get up to God knows what.... but better not be a puff?
I can tell you very easily who I would rather have at my back during on an operation.
I have served with obviously gay men who were hard, efficient, loyal brothers.
I have buried one, too.
I pray that God sees his good deeds and forgives him his flaws. Indeed, I pray the same for myself (different flaws).
My two cents.
Nothing to say, Anonymous?
DeleteNope, nothing really to say. You reinforced what I said. I wasn't referring to rape of the vanquished by the victors, but was referring to rape as a form of dominance between men who are otherwise heterosexual - a practice not unheard of in the military and very common on prison.
DeleteThank you for your contribution to my point.
As to your friend who you buried - his being gay is no more of a "flaw" than if he pale skin and red hair. It is your interpretation that turns it into a "flaw". Hopefully you're capable of stepping beyond moral interpretations designed back when slavery and torture were acceptable, and can see that he is no more flawed than you.
Thank you for your service, particularly on this day of remembrance.
@Aonon:
DeleteThe Catholic Church never "banned" homosexuality. It correctly identified homosexual acts as sinful. Over the past 50 years in the US and Europe, the Church's view of homosexuality as sinful has waned, and homosexuality has become much more mainstream.
AIDS, STD's on an historic scale, and millions of preventable deaths related to homosexual conduct have ensued.
The Church has been vindicated, tragically.