Opinions and musings on religion, philosophy, science, politics, and life from a conservative Catholic neurosurgeon.
Saturday, March 16, 2013
"What if the Pope was one of us..."
This photo of Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio-- Pope Francis-- riding the subway to work in Buenos Aires in 2008 reminds me of Joan Osborne's song "One of Us".
"... just a stranger on a bus trying to make his way home..."
First, we had the Truthers. Then we got the Birthers.
Now we will have the Juntistas. Wait for the avalanche of Pallywood-type YouTube videos with scrounged photos of torture and darkly voiced innuendo. It's coming.
Despite that, I think the Curia is in for some fresh air and long-overdue surprises, and I predict Francis I will be a Pope beloved by the laity.
That’s bound to happen when you tacitly support right-wing death squads, but don’t worry, many Catholics like Egnor celebrate right-wing death squads, and a picture of him on a bus is more than enough to dupe the rest of the flock.
I’m watching “Pope Francis I Dirty War Secrets” on You Tube right now, I am the 9th viewer.
I agree. I believe that Pope Francis will be loved by the laity for his humility and transparent holiness.
There is certainly going to be some housecleaning, which is welcome and overdue. And it's going to be in the Franciscan spirit, with Jesuit perspicacity.
How naive can you get, Egnor? The new boss was elected by cardinals that were nearly to a man (pun intended) appointed by the two previous conservative popes.
Okay, so three days into the papacy, someone makes a video on YoutTube purporting to show the truth about the pope's "War Secrets."
If I told that I learned that Obama is actually a Muslim from watching a YouTube video called "President Obama's Islam Secrets" you'd probably laugh at me, and rightly so. You are the quintessential low-information voter.
Do you understand now why people think you're a bigot?
Pope Francis was elected by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Who worked through the Cardinals.
Yeah, right. A very weak guidance it must be if it can take weeks and many rounds of voting before the Holy Spirit's favorite man finally wins. The tooth fairy seems more powerful in comparison.
How do you feel about those Argentinean left-wing death squads?
They rank very high on my long list of favorite death squads.
KW is doing what liberals do best: hyperventilating about some "truth" he discovered on Youtube. Somebody should tell him that were plenty of videos on Youtube claiming that the world was going to end in December 2012. Hey, it was on Youtube so it must be true!
"How do you feel about those Argentinean left-wing death squads?"
Is it really so hard for you to say "I don't support death squads. Full stop." Do you have no alternative but to resort to tu quoque arguments? Does lending tacit support to a government that made a habit of throwing people out of airplanes sans parachute warm the cockles of your heart that much?
Despite his protetations, Michael 'the world could use more Francos' Egnor makes his view clear: in a war with a savage, support the savage.
My Leftie interlocutors have slandered the Pope with references to the Dirty War in Argentina, and have used to odd term "right wing death squads".
It's odd because no reference is ever made to left-wing death squads, who are the most prolific death-squadders in modern history.
To understand the conflict, one must understand it from various perspectives. I need to know whether you oppose violence, or just oppose stopping violent communist putsch.
How do you feel about those Argentinean left-wing death squads?
You know Michael, those were some pretty 'gimmee' questions. All it required was to say simply and directly "No, I don't support death squads." Instead of manning-up and giving a straightforward answer to a straightforward question, you become your usual mealy-mouthed evader self who tries to change the subject.
The Argentine government at the time did some pretty evil things. There is no 'Yes, but ..'. They. Were. Savages. In a war with a savage, supporting the savage is evil.
The communist terrorists started the war, and they were criminals who tried to transform Argentina to a totalitarian hell.
No they didn't. The military staged multiple coups to oust democratic governments they deemed too left-wing.
Latin America has always been plagued by huge material inequality. A small number of rich families ruled essentially feudal societies where the vast majority of people lived in abject poverty and were de facto serfs. The Vatican has always been in league with the rulers in exchange for 'spiritual' power over the poor masses, and to blackmail the poor of their last dime in exchange for promises of salvation. An utterly evil pact between oppressors and the Church to keep the common people in their place. This is the kind of society that fascist-loving Egnor supports. The USA is well on its way to a similar society. Jesus would weep.
Things are finally changing a bit with social democrats in control in some Latin American countries.
The military coups were to oust Peron and his subsequent clones, who were utterly corrupt and catastrophic for Argentina. Peronistas were an amalgam of leftist and rightist thugs who had plunged the country into devastating economic collapse and civil war.
The military was the grown-ups. The lefty cadres of the Peronists merged with the Leninists and Maoists from the sewers and declared war on the country, hoping to install a nice Pol Pot style communist paradise.
The Church obviously sided with the better guys, against the commies (duh). Unfortunately a few priests and others aided the EPA and the Montoneros (the Argentine Bolsheviks and Khmer Rouge), and paid a price for it. They should not have been killed extrajudicially nor tortured, but they deserved the harshest legal punishments for treason and abetting terrorism.
Thank the Lord the better guys (the military) won.
Do you disagree, troy? If so, tell me about all of the good democratic governments that have emerged around the world from violent communist takeovers.
Maybe we'll find out that the future Pope began his ecclesiastical career in the living room of terrorists and spent 20 years in the church of an anti-Semitic madman.
Did the cardinal condemn the left-wing death squads? Because if he didn't, then he tacitly supported them. He must have been tacitly supporting both sides. This tacit support business sounds like an attempt to transfer the crimes of one entity to another.
This tacit support business is lame. I've never heard Troy or KW condemn North Korea, ergo they lend the regime tacit support. How far do you want to go with this?
From what I can tell, Pope Francis I is being accused of not inserting himself enough into Argentinian politics thirty years ago by denouncing evil within the government. Yet when the bishops denounce evil in our government, people tell them to mind their own business. Sounds like a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
When leftists whine that the church is forcing their morals on people, they aren't really upset that the church is "forcing" morals on anyone. They're upset that they aren't forcing the Left's bizarre moral code on anyone.
Sometimes the church does come down on the same side of an issue as liberals, be it illegal immigration, budget priorities, the death penalty, nuclear weapons or the war in Iraq. Liberals will never tell the pope or the US Conference of Catholic Bishops to shut up when they pronounce on these subjects. It's only when the Church diverges from the Left's agenda that it throws a temper tantrum. It's pretty clear that they only want to Church to mind its own business if it won't take their side.
The Church itself is a pretty anemic institution. It can't do anything but try to influence voters to see things their way, and plenty don't. It can't veto bills coming out of Congress or making judicial appointments. All it has is words, which people are free to take or leave. In other words, it couldn't "force" its agenda on anyone even if it wanted to. And yet liberals get themselves all worked up in a tizzy of pronouncements that hold no weight.
Or, in the words of the beloved Papa Joe (Stalin), "How many divisions does the Pope have?"
Observing the many government leaders gathered at the Vatican for the funeral of Pope John Paul II, we might well have suspected that the world’s politico-military chieftains need what the Pope has more than the Pope needs what they have.
Governments have physical force—control over a society’s most decisive means of dispensing violence. They may try to disguise this essential attribute by cloaking it in measures ostensibly for the enhancement of the people’s “welfare” and “security”; they may paint its hardened, harlot face with cheery “democratic” cosmetics; but when push comes to shove, all governments fall back on their superior ability to beat, shackle, imprison, and kill those who challenge the exercise of their power. -- Robert Higgs
First, we had the Truthers.
ReplyDeleteThen we got the Birthers.
Now we will have the Juntistas. Wait for the avalanche of Pallywood-type YouTube videos with scrounged photos of torture and darkly voiced innuendo. It's coming.
Despite that, I think the Curia is in for some fresh air and long-overdue surprises, and I predict Francis I will be a Pope beloved by the laity.
That’s bound to happen when you tacitly support right-wing death squads, but don’t worry, many Catholics like Egnor celebrate right-wing death squads, and a picture of him on a bus is more than enough to dupe the rest of the flock.
DeleteI’m watching “Pope Francis I Dirty War Secrets” on You Tube right now, I am the 9th viewer.
Brilliant move, that bus riding.
-KW
@KW:
DeleteDo you have any critique of the left-wing death squads in Argentina?
@Adm. Boggs:
DeleteI agree. I believe that Pope Francis will be loved by the laity for his humility and transparent holiness.
There is certainly going to be some housecleaning, which is welcome and overdue. And it's going to be in the Franciscan spirit, with Jesuit perspicacity.
A great renewal in the Church.
How naive can you get, Egnor? The new boss was elected by cardinals that were nearly to a man (pun intended) appointed by the two previous conservative popes.
DeleteThe new boss, same as the old boss.
Pope Francis was elected by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Who worked through the Cardinals.
DeleteYour reduction of the life of the Church to mere secular politics is evidence for your deep misunderstanding of the real dynamics of Christianity.
troy:
DeleteHow do you feel about those Argentinean left-wing death squads?
Are you ashamed of the Left's implicit support for them?
Okay, so three days into the papacy, someone makes a video on YoutTube purporting to show the truth about the pope's "War Secrets."
DeleteIf I told that I learned that Obama is actually a Muslim from watching a YouTube video called "President Obama's Islam Secrets" you'd probably laugh at me, and rightly so. You are the quintessential low-information voter.
Do you understand now why people think you're a bigot?
Joey
Pope Francis was elected by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Who worked through the Cardinals.
DeleteYeah, right. A very weak guidance it must be if it can take weeks and many rounds of voting before the Holy Spirit's favorite man finally wins. The tooth fairy seems more powerful in comparison.
How do you feel about those Argentinean left-wing death squads?
They rank very high on my long list of favorite death squads.
@troy:
Delete"[left wind death squads] rank very high on my long list of favorite death squads."
How come you never mention them?
It would seem that to understand right wing death squads, you must take note of left wing death squads.
I oppose both, and condemn both. You have only condemned one, but not the other.
KW is doing what liberals do best: hyperventilating about some "truth" he discovered on Youtube. Somebody should tell him that were plenty of videos on Youtube claiming that the world was going to end in December 2012. Hey, it was on Youtube so it must be true!
Delete--Francisca S.
When I want Truth with a capital T, I always seek out YouTube videos that reinforce my preconceived notions. In that regard, I'm a lot like KW.
DeleteJoey
Is it just me or does he look like Jonathan Pryce?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000596/?ref_=tt_cl_t1
@crus:
DeleteThe resemblance is quite close!
;)
"How do you feel about those Argentinean left-wing death squads?"
ReplyDeleteIs it really so hard for you to say "I don't support death squads. Full stop." Do you have no alternative but to resort to tu quoque arguments? Does lending tacit support to a government that made a habit of throwing people out of airplanes sans parachute warm the cockles of your heart that much?
Despite his protetations, Michael 'the world could use more Francos' Egnor makes his view clear: in a war with a savage, support the savage.
My Leftie interlocutors have slandered the Pope with references to the Dirty War in Argentina, and have used to odd term "right wing death squads".
DeleteIt's odd because no reference is ever made to left-wing death squads, who are the most prolific death-squadders in modern history.
To understand the conflict, one must understand it from various perspectives.
I need to know whether you oppose violence, or just oppose stopping violent communist putsch.
How do you feel about those Argentinean left-wing death squads?
All he's got is "tacit support," which is silent by definition.
DeleteAnd yet people who think that Bill Ayers and Barack Obama are friends are guilty of smearing him by association.
You're going to have to do better than "tacit support." You offer implicit support of euthanasia and killing the unborn.
Joey
You know Michael, those were some pretty 'gimmee' questions. All it required was to say simply and directly "No, I don't support death squads." Instead of manning-up and giving a straightforward answer to a straightforward question, you become your usual mealy-mouthed evader self who tries to change the subject.
DeleteThe Argentine government at the time did some pretty evil things. There is no 'Yes, but ..'. They. Were. Savages. In a war with a savage, supporting the savage is evil.
There was savagery on both sides.
DeleteBut the savagery was not equal.
The communist terrorists started the war, and they were criminals who tried to transform Argentina to a totalitarian hell.
The military/government ended the war, by destroying the communists as was their responsibility to do. It was a great and necessary accomplishment.
Much of the military action was entirely legitimate and moral. Some was immoral, and can and has been punished.
Countless supporters of the communist murderers should be punished, but never will be.
The Left uses the war it started as a cudgel to slander the good forces who stopped them.
Thank God that the communists were defeated.
The communist terrorists started the war, and they were criminals who tried to transform Argentina to a totalitarian hell.
DeleteNo they didn't. The military staged multiple coups to oust democratic governments they deemed too left-wing.
Latin America has always been plagued by huge material inequality. A small number of rich families ruled essentially feudal societies where the vast majority of people lived in abject poverty and were de facto serfs. The Vatican has always been in league with the rulers in exchange for 'spiritual' power over the poor masses, and to blackmail the poor of their last dime in exchange for promises of salvation. An utterly evil pact between oppressors and the Church to keep the common people in their place. This is the kind of society that fascist-loving Egnor supports. The USA is well on its way to a similar society. Jesus would weep.
Things are finally changing a bit with social democrats in control in some Latin American countries.
The military coups were to oust Peron and his subsequent clones, who were utterly corrupt and catastrophic for Argentina. Peronistas were an amalgam of leftist and rightist thugs who had plunged the country into devastating economic collapse and civil war.
DeleteThe military was the grown-ups. The lefty cadres of the Peronists merged with the Leninists and Maoists from the sewers and declared war on the country, hoping to install a nice Pol Pot style communist paradise.
The Church obviously sided with the better guys, against the commies (duh). Unfortunately a few priests and others aided the EPA and the Montoneros (the Argentine Bolsheviks and Khmer Rouge), and paid a price for it. They should not have been killed extrajudicially nor tortured, but they deserved the harshest legal punishments for treason and abetting terrorism.
Thank the Lord the better guys (the military) won.
Do you disagree, troy? If so, tell me about all of the good democratic governments that have emerged around the world from violent communist takeovers.
I should have said explicit support.
ReplyDeleteJoey
@KW and troy:
DeleteJoey makes an excellent point.
Maybe we'll find out that the future Pope began his ecclesiastical career in the living room of terrorists and spent 20 years in the church of an anti-Semitic madman.
Oh...wait... that wasn't Pope Francis...
Did the cardinal condemn the left-wing death squads? Because if he didn't, then he tacitly supported them. He must have been tacitly supporting both sides. This tacit support business sounds like an attempt to transfer the crimes of one entity to another.
ReplyDelete--Francisca S.
This tacit support business is lame. I've never heard Troy or KW condemn North Korea, ergo they lend the regime tacit support. How far do you want to go with this?
DeleteJoey
I would comment, but I want to lend you two my tacit support.
Delete;)
From what I can tell, Pope Francis I is being accused of not inserting himself enough into Argentinian politics thirty years ago by denouncing evil within the government. Yet when the bishops denounce evil in our government, people tell them to mind their own business. Sounds like a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
ReplyDeleteJQ
When leftists whine that the church is forcing their morals on people, they aren't really upset that the church is "forcing" morals on anyone. They're upset that they aren't forcing the Left's bizarre moral code on anyone.
DeleteSometimes the church does come down on the same side of an issue as liberals, be it illegal immigration, budget priorities, the death penalty, nuclear weapons or the war in Iraq. Liberals will never tell the pope or the US Conference of Catholic Bishops to shut up when they pronounce on these subjects. It's only when the Church diverges from the Left's agenda that it throws a temper tantrum. It's pretty clear that they only want to Church to mind its own business if it won't take their side.
The Church itself is a pretty anemic institution. It can't do anything but try to influence voters to see things their way, and plenty don't. It can't veto bills coming out of Congress or making judicial appointments. All it has is words, which people are free to take or leave. In other words, it couldn't "force" its agenda on anyone even if it wanted to. And yet liberals get themselves all worked up in a tizzy of pronouncements that hold no weight.
Joey
JQ, you hit the nail on the head.
DeleteOr, in the words of the beloved Papa Joe (Stalin), "How many divisions does the Pope have?"
Observing the many government leaders gathered at the Vatican for the funeral of Pope John Paul II, we might well have suspected that the world’s politico-military chieftains need what the Pope has more than the Pope needs what they have.
Governments have physical force—control over a society’s most decisive means of dispensing violence. They may try to disguise this essential attribute by cloaking it in measures ostensibly for the enhancement of the people’s “welfare” and “security”; they may paint its hardened, harlot face with cheery “democratic” cosmetics; but when push comes to shove, all governments fall back on their superior ability to beat, shackle, imprison, and kill those who challenge the exercise of their power.
-- Robert Higgs