Wednesday, July 6, 2011

When was the last time atheists went to court to encourage freedom of speech?

Commentor Nnoel takes exception to my observation that atheists are an intolerant litigious cult who suppress freedom of speech and free expression of religion:

Nnoel said...

So the people who use the law to enforce the constitution of america by sueing those that break the constitution are actually acting as bigots?


The First Amendment protects free speech and free exercise of religion. It does not provide fringe cults with a veto over speech they don't like. Some court decisions have gone the way of the atheist censors, based on the bizarre interpretation of the Establishment Clause that calls a private citizen's mere expression of religious opinion or question about evolution equivalent to the establishment of a National Institutional Church. According to countless atheist lawsuits, atheists are irreparably harmed if they even hear the beliefs of Christians.

The Establishment Clause, after all, was intended to encourage vigorous public expression of religion and to prohibit government censorship.

If you still aren't sure what atheists are really up to when they drag Christians into federal courts all over the country to silence them and remove Christian symbols from public view, ask yourself this question:

When was the last time that atheists went to court to encourage freedom of speech and and free exercise of religion?

Nnoel:
you MAY pray in school, just dont FORCE it down anyone's throat, FORCING your religion onto others in a willful manner is unamerican,
Christians who express their beliefs in public aren't forcing anyone to do anything.  No atheist is forced to listen, no atheist is forced to give assent.

There is no Constitutional right to not hear the beliefs of others.  The only force involved in this debate is  atheists' use of government force to shut Christians up.

but then I hear being gay or black or slightly different in the bible belt would get you beaten up in no time, thats bigotry!
The death rate for urban blacks and gays is astronomical.  A black person is 40 times as likely to be murdered on the streets of Detroit (few bibles there) than on the streets of Plano Texas (lots of bibles).  The most prolific killer of gays in the U.S,  without parallel, is AIDS, with more than a quarter million deaths to date.  How many gays got AIDS from Christian bigots in the bible belt, as opposed to, say,  from gay atheist liberals in a San Francisco bathhouse?

The safest place for blacks and gays is in "bible belt" America.

Nnoel:
The bigots get sued, because the constitution is there to protect your population, those that break the constitution are infringing on others freedoms. I'm not an Atheist, your arguments stink.
The only bigot I see here is you, Nnoel.  You accuse the good folks in bible-belt America of violence, when in fact these regions of the country are among the safest.  That's one of the primary reasons that people of all races and orientations flee the cities-- it's safer in bible-belt America.

The real violence against blacks and gays is in liberal bastions like Detroit, Washington, Baltimore, etc.

You aren't a liberal, are you Nnoel?

13 comments:

  1. Michael,

    You are quite mistaken about the Bible belt being the safest place. Murder rates in the most religious Southern states are substantially higher than they are in the least religious Northeastern states. Here are the crime stats from 2008 (per 100,000):

    Alabama 8.0
    Georgia 7.1
    Tennessee 6.6
    Texas 6.1

    Compare them to

    Massachusetts 2.6
    New Jersey 4.3
    New York 4.3
    Vermont 2.8

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  2. Oleg,

    The high murder rates in those southern states is because of the high crime rates in the large cities in those states- Birmingham, Atlanta, Memphis, Houston. Those cities are not "bible-belt". They're liberal democrat hell-holes, and are the anthesis fo the bible-belt.

    The bible belt is rural and suburban south and midwest, where the crime rate is exceedingly low.

    Good try.

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  3. That's a cute theory, Mike. However, it doesn't work.

    We can comare statistics for homicide rates in urban, suburban, and rural areas of Alabama [1]. The quoted rates were 18, 10, and 12 per 100,000 people. Massachusetts overall had a homicide rate of 4 per 100,000. Vermont even less.

    [1] L. Riddick et al., Homicide in Alabama: An analysis of urban, suburban and rural murders in the deep south, Forensic Science International 40, 105 (1989). doi:10.1016/0379-0738(89)90138-2.

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  4. Oleg,

    We can argue homicide stats forever. The war-zones of crime in the US- dangerous neighborhoods in Washington DC, Chicago, Newark, Houston, Detroit, Miami, New Orleans, aren't the least bit "bible belt". The gang bangers aren't goin' to church.

    The factor that ties all of these high-crime areas together is that they are deep blue democrat zones.

    If you wish to advance your slander against Christians, you need to demonstrate that active Christianity (not merely living in a part of the country labeled "bible belt") correlates with crime.

    It obviously does correlate, negatively, in a big way.

    The vast majority of violent crime in this country occurs in broken families in broken cities with deep blue liberal politics. Liberal a**holes gave us this chaos, with their idiotic social programs and policies on crime that gave us the massive crime wave beginning in the 60's.

    To blame violent crime on Christians is depraved, and you know it.

    And you haven't said a thing about my point about AIDS.

    Mike

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  5. "When was the last time atheists went to court to encourage freedom of speech?"

    - egnorance indeed! I BELIEVE that those people ARE suing to encourage freedom of speech! If I'm in a 'school' situation with the biggest and most numerous of my 'peers' wishing to ENFORCE 'behavior x' but the group would also prefer to do 'y' and 'z' as well, but are afraid to say so because they would be marginalized by those with more 'power' in the situation, a teacher stepping up and not letting others FORCE me to do something I don't want to would be ENCOURAGING FREEDOM!

    You are acting, in my scenario, like the numerous bullies, without giving thought to those whom you are forcing to 'play your game'. Christians should be humble and thoughtful of others, your opinions are contradicting that good advice the bible gives

    "According to countless atheist lawsuits, atheists are irreparably harmed if they even hear the beliefs of Christians."
    - sensationist BS. Be honest in your speech, that which divides is never of god, and in my opinion your exaggeration is harmful to yourself, your purpose (being a good christian, i assume) and those you are marginalizing. The seed of your complaint is that those in 'power' (teachers etc) can at no point (while on the government payroll) encourage any SPECIFIC religious behavior. A 'moment of contemplation to pray or meditate' would probably be appropriate, but that's not explicit enough, christian want it all their own way or we are censoring them.


    "Christians who express their beliefs in public aren't forcing anyone to do anything. No atheist is forced to listen, no atheist is forced to give assent. "
    - So those at a school ceremony who wish not to hear the prayer can leave their seats and stand outside while those inside would be good little jesus' and completely understand their behavior and would NEVER consider being indignant of those peoples or EVER think to marginalize those peoples once the school ceremony was over. - I'm calling BS on that one, they'd be marginlized to s**t.

    AIDS doesn't have anything to do with the price of eggs, if gay men are going to have hundreds of consenting partners, I'm not going to judge them, but if god judges, AIDS is a pretty just sentence perhaps, or perhaps not, they may do as they please, and that attitude I learn from the bible.

    mregnor - i hear you saying it is wonderful to live in the bible belt, this is the first I'm hearing that minorities in an overly christian area are free to express themselves without fear of marginalization, I shall take your 'evidence' and offset it with the other 'evidences' I have found (your statements should hold as much weight as that of an author or a TV program I suppose). But previously, as a liberal devotee of the divine, I would not have dreamed of visiting the rural areas of the bible belt where I hear stories that one is marginalized for the 'fault' of being a 'reader' (Dom Joly was almost beat up for reading a book in a cafe)

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  6. P.S. They are suing for YOUR freedom as well. If you subscribe to a particular religious idea, and help it come to power, once it is IN power (ie. once you've made sure YOUR religion is the religion that decides who gets to pray what), then your own religion would enevitably become corrupted by those seeking on only for powers sake, and then you find yourself in a situation where if the ideologies are the 'major' religion change, you'd want to unsubscribe yourself (you no longer believe as they do), but if you did unsubscribe, you'd still be forced to pray as they do.

    I know the above senario is almost unthinkable, but perhpas consider that the christianity you are hoping to see 'control who prays what' today, might be a different religion when your children or their children grow up, so if no for yourself...

    take for example the catholic church, did it always start as an organization that would shield a pedophile to protect the public image of the organization? I dont think so! Religion changes, especially when it is the religion in 'power', as it will attract the wrong sort of person. So having 'control of what is prayed in school' is as much a curse as it is a blessing.

    p.p.s. I assume we are debating because you wish to engage, if I'm just disturbing your little world and would wish me to move along, thats ok too, love is the most important thing, the rest is just fun!

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  7. Mike,

    You are projecting. I have no intention of slandering Christians. I find them to be decent human beings en masse who have contributed much to the human culture and science.

    I detest your methods of painting your opponents (atheist, Democrats) with a broad brush. You rely on an unsophisticated mixture of lies and half-truths and I will call out your BS when I see fit.

    Keep up the good work.

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  8. Why on earth would Atheists prefer a free forum? The do not believe in objectivity. They have no need for the 'superstitions' of morality. Ethics, the sliding scale of the elite, is framework enough for them. Men decide everything in the Atheist universe, THEY are the Gods.
    You may worship NO other before THEM!
    There is something definitely Faustian about the nature of this argument, don't you think, Mike?

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  9. @Oleg,

    The assertion that murder rates are higher in the bible belt is an obvious assertion that Christianity breeds or excuses violence. It does not.

    It is also factually wrong. The bible belt refers to the cultural regions of the country where evangelical/fundamentalist Christianity is vigorously practiced. It is not demarcated by state borders, and crime-infested inner city neighborhoods (in Memphis, New Orleans, Houston, Washington DC, etc) are obviously not bible belt in any coherent meaning of the word.

    It's just a slander, as I said.

    And thanks for your comments. I disagree with them, but you make important points, although I think that they need to be refuted.

    I do value the back and forth.

    Mike

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  10. crusadeRex,

    "Why on earth would Atheists prefer a free forum? Men decide everything in the Atheist universe, THEY are the Gods.
    You may worship NO other before THEM!
    There is something definitely Faustian about the nature of this argument, don't you think, Mike?"

    I emphatically agree. Atheism is the will to power. "Freedom" is a method of achieving power, not an end in itself. After atheists achieve power, freedom is extinguished.

    Mike

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  11. The assertion that murder rates are higher in the bible belt is an obvious assertion that Christianity breeds or excuses violence.

    Doesn't follow. Correlation does not mean causation.

    It is also factually wrong. The bible belt refers to the cultural regions of the country where evangelical/fundamentalist Christianity is vigorously practiced. It is not demarcated by state borders, and crime-infested inner city neighborhoods (in Memphis, New Orleans, Houston, Washington DC, etc) are obviously not bible belt in any coherent meaning of the word.

    You can make up your own definitions but others don't have to follow them. In any event, the statistics I cited show that violent crime in rural areas of the South was lower than in its cities but still higher than in the Northeast. Go ahead and argue that criminals are not part of the Bible Belt, but don't expect to be taken seriously.

    And I will repeat that your slander of atheists and Democrats is no less detestable than a slander of Christians or Republicans. Ponder that.

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  12. "After atheists achieve power, freedom is extinguished." - total BS. In america where most religious people start running around like their hair is on fire if any 'liberal' starts encroaching on 'biblical standards of running the country' people are enslaved to poverty and religious rules,while in places where ATHIESTS rule and abortion is legal and gays are allowed to marry... people report feeling happier, crimes rates are lower, and because reason rules, have a higher standard of living.

    Making sensationalist claims about those holding opposing views is typical american republican tactic. It never really works, it only scares the un-informed, which is the republican target audience. They make a farce of being 'christian' all the while really not having any christian objectives at all.

    Fact is, america is overly religious, and places far to much emphasis on capatilism, which means "screw the little guy, our major corporation needs to make more money". Leading countries in europe are completely irreligious in reality, give people many more freedoms to 'sin' than america does, they suffer fewer natural disasters (not really relevant), the population (when compared by sociologists) are happier, and crime is lower.

    Facts call your whole argument BS, republicans claim godly-ness (support us, it's what jesus would do), while making decisions based on the needs of faceless corporations instead of the most needy in the population, and it is all prefaced with the sort of comment you closed with in your last comment. Look around you, compare america to the REAL leading countries and how their populations are treated and treat each other, and you'd be ashamed to be american. America MAY have been greatest nation once, but your overly religious culture have ensured you lead at nothing but gun crime figures. Your education system is rubbish, your hospitals are rubbish, and for a first world country, far to many people are on the poverty line. GO CAPATILISM. Even in england, communism in the form of socialism has snuck in, free hospitals for all, but of course, capatilism is good to a degree, but I heard a case recently where is was considered a blow at capatilism that the government wanted to stop the sale of a pram that was cutting children's fingers off, and the general population was up in arms... MADNESS!

    Course, you could just disagree with me, not look at the facts, and keep wallowing in exaggerations and falsifications fed to you by your 'godly' politicians who care for nothing but money.

    wake up!

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  13. "After atheists achieve power, freedom is extinguished." - total BS. In america where most religious people start running around like their hair is on fire if any 'liberal' starts encroaching on 'biblical standards of running the country' people are enslaved to poverty and religious rules,while in places where ATHIESTS rule and abortion is legal and gays are allowed to marry... people report feeling happier [except the dead ones], crimes rates are lower [as long as being murdered in the womb is not counted as a crime], and because reason rules, have a higher standard of living [for those left alive].

    Making sensationalist claims about those holding opposing views is typical american republican tactic...,


    Thanks for demonstrating in an immediate and most perfect way that you are yourself, by your own definition, a "typical american republican".

    I don't have any idea what you wrote after your instantaneous self-refutation, however. I'm sure it was just as enlightening.

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