Vox Day:
Day is right. The decline in cultural Christianity is bad for the cultural Christians themselves and for the culture left behind, but it is not bad for Christianity. A smaller and more vital Church may be just what we need. The church of Laodicea is more an albatross than an asset to the work of the Gospel.
What interests me is Day's observation that paganism, not secular humanism, is the heir to modern apostasy. Secular humanism-- atheism without power-- has no lasting appeal to the human heart. It will motivate bullies and fools for a few more centuries, but it is bookless-- it has no coherent story to tell, no joy, no inspiration to anything but fatalism and indulgence.
Paganism is vibrant, and has survived since the dawn of man. Worship of nature, of false gods, of self is natural to fallen man, and it will be the religion of the post-Christian West. Moloch and Gaia are back in business, with a vengeance.
Fascism-- the worship of the state-- is the natural political structure of paganism. Pagan fascism will struggle with Islam, just like it struggled with atheism in the 20th century. The fascist-on-pagan violence emulates its predecessor in Europe-- fascist-on-atheist violence-- with remarkable fidelity.
You can see it rising in Europe. The alliance between the Nazis and the Islamists during WWII mirrors the Hitler-Stalin pact. Gangsters embrace for convenience, then slaughter one another over the spoils.
De-Christianization is an blood affair.
[The decline in numbers of Christians in Britain] is a bad thing, but for the UK, not for Christianity. It is the cultural Christians who are on the decline. No religion that grew from eleven frightened men to over a billion adherents has anything to fear from the vicissitudes of history. The idea that there would be a great apostasy is hardly a surprise to any premillennial Christian.
What is a surprise, however, is the speed with which the secular humanists are being pushed aside by the pagans.
Day is right. The decline in cultural Christianity is bad for the cultural Christians themselves and for the culture left behind, but it is not bad for Christianity. A smaller and more vital Church may be just what we need. The church of Laodicea is more an albatross than an asset to the work of the Gospel.
What interests me is Day's observation that paganism, not secular humanism, is the heir to modern apostasy. Secular humanism-- atheism without power-- has no lasting appeal to the human heart. It will motivate bullies and fools for a few more centuries, but it is bookless-- it has no coherent story to tell, no joy, no inspiration to anything but fatalism and indulgence.
Paganism is vibrant, and has survived since the dawn of man. Worship of nature, of false gods, of self is natural to fallen man, and it will be the religion of the post-Christian West. Moloch and Gaia are back in business, with a vengeance.
Fascism-- the worship of the state-- is the natural political structure of paganism. Pagan fascism will struggle with Islam, just like it struggled with atheism in the 20th century. The fascist-on-pagan violence emulates its predecessor in Europe-- fascist-on-atheist violence-- with remarkable fidelity.
You can see it rising in Europe. The alliance between the Nazis and the Islamists during WWII mirrors the Hitler-Stalin pact. Gangsters embrace for convenience, then slaughter one another over the spoils.
De-Christianization is an blood affair.
You can see it rising in Europe.
ReplyDeleteThe Hungarian fascist Viktor Orban is, of course, a conservative Christian.
[Orban] is not a conservative as we understand the term. Rather, he is constructing a top-down, over-centralised state that fuses elements of welfare socialism with nationalist rhetoric.
Delete--- The Economist 10/8/2013
I'll take The Economist's word for it, if you don't mind.
And if he's "constructing a top-down, over-centralised state that fuses elements of welfare socialism with nationalist rhetoric...", he's not a Christian either (in any sense of the word that matters). Not that you would know, as the word is just an epithet to you.
But congratulations anyway! You're starting out with a double. Not bad!
Who is this Viktor Orban anyway? If he's for a top-down, overcentralized state, he's no conservative. He's a progressive.
DeleteBen
Mike,
DeleteWhile I agree with the concept put forth that humanist secularism is a vacuum that is being filled with paganism (and Islam) - I do take issue with the idea this is somehow good for Christianity ( 'a smaller more vital Church').
You seem to agree that Vox is correct about this not being a good thing for the UK as the decline is cultural.
I find this assertion to be the equivalent of suggesting that having a socialist tyrant ruling over the united states is somehow good for the libertarian spirit.
Cultural Christianity has been a great force for good and has spread not only the word of the Gospels but has been evidence of a clearly successful model based on that word for the world to witness.
The decline of such a culture is not a good thing.
It's replacement by hollow, susceptible self worship is not a good thing. The resurfacing of the blood cults and the nature worship (ie scientism, wicca etc) cults is not a good thing. It's not good for the nations that have defended Christianity, nor the individuals (Christian or not) within them; not good for science, not for philosophy, art or any aspect of culture.I would argue, that means, by proxy that such a shift is not for Christianity itself.
Will Christianity survive? Sure. Of course.
I agree with both of you on that.
Will it be more resolute or more universal? I am tempted to quote some passive and absurd political platitudes emanating from both Canterbury and Rome (ie the two Churches receding in the UK).
I pray you are correct on this point, Mike. But, I am reminded of what follows the great apostasy foretold in the Bible; and that is not a good time for the 'elect'.
Lastly the reference to the Laodicean Church. I am assuming you are comparing the 'hot and cold' aspects with the rather tepid modern cultural Christianity. While I see your connection in that respect, I would point out that Paul found them important enough to remonstrate them on their lukewarm nature. Asia minor became a centre of Christian thought and culture for centuries.
The cultural Christianity that is in rapid decline in the UK and steady decline here in North America should not be abandoned, but rather modified and repaired to a state of functionality. It is our, in my opinion, duty as Christians to do our best to see this done.
We cannot simply shrug off the Laodicean Church if we are to be truly universal (ie catholic). We need to reach out to those that still hold the faith and help them to be 'hot or cold' and thereby rescue the broader culture enabled by their faith.
My two cents.
Interesting post, Mike.
PS
DeleteI would be very interested in your ideas on the rise of the 'New Age' movement in your own country and if you see that as parallel.
Specifically on the teachings of people like Marianne Williamson (now running for office), and the mass popularity of books like 'The Secret' etc.
Cheers.
Not a True Admiral:
DeleteAnd if he's "constructing a top-down, over-centralised state that fuses elements of welfare socialism with nationalist rhetoric...", he's not a Christian either (in any sense of the word that matters).
Right. A self-professed Calvinist can't be a True Christian if he is not in favor of minimal government. I wonder how Calvin would feel about that.
According to Wikipedia he is the leader of
Fidesz – Magyar Polgári Szövetség) is a major national conservative[11][12] political party in Hungary.
I'll take Wikipedia's word over The Economist's most days of the week.
One of the basic tenets of Christianity is subsidiarity. Top-down government is the antithesis of that. If you want further religious instruction, visit a local church. I don't have time for you.
DeleteI'll take Wikipedia's word...
Fine. I'm with The Economist. Many politicians have belonged to a conservative party who were not conservative at all (see Nixon, Richard: wage and price controls).
"I'll take Wikipedia's word..."
DeleteThat one line speaks volumes.
Many of the more "progressive" denominations have drifted into a bloodless faith. Just the other day, Pope Francis noted that a religion without mystics is a philosophy. If faith is to mean anything, it must be more than just an intellectual enterprise.
ReplyDeleteHuman beings apparently have a longing for meaning and an inherent sense of the transcendent. Even some atheistic evolutionary psychologists recognize this. If mainstream Christianity refuses to acknowledge this, the churches will empty. People need more. They will go somewhere. In a world without an immanent God, getting naked, painting oneself with arcane patterns, and worshiping trees becomes more attractive.
"Moloch [is] back in business, with a vengeance."
ReplyDeleteWhether we call that god 'Moloch' or 'Venus', its preferred sacrifice is the innocent child.
Julie Miller: Dangerous PLace (audio) -- "... Venus has a sacrifice, and children are the price ..."
DeleteIlion,
DeleteThe video was moving. Thank you.
I hope you'll check out more of Julie Miller's music.
DeleteIlion,
DeleteI will indeed. Again, thanks.
"Secular humanism-- atheism without power-- has no lasting appeal to the human heart. It will motivate bullies and fools for a few more centuries, but it is bookless-"
ReplyDeleteHuum.
As has been noted before.
"Atheism is so senseless and odious to mankind that it never had many professors"
Sir Isaac Newton
JR
"Sir Isaac Newton"
DeletePresumably a cowardly heretic like the rest of us Anglicans.
As I you are fully aware...Newton's Christianity would be totally unrecognisable to the Anglican Church of today.
DeleteJR
I dare say the same is true of St Francis and the Vatican, JR. Hence the guffawing at the current pope.
DeleteHi Rex.
DeleteDon't want to annoy you but I don't follow your point here.
This is my fault, as I can presume to know very little about Anglicanism outside of the UK.
I will say that Anglicanism outside of the UK and the Anglican Church in the UK can be so totally different that (didn't?) 60 or so Anglican Bishops held their own General Synod the other year.
I recall it was held 'in opposition' to the other one in England?
So I was wrong on reflection to insult 'Anglicans'.
Sorry for any possible offense caused (if you are an Anglican). On reflection, I recall very many 'real' Christian Anglicans in Africa for example.
Hi Rex.
DeleteDon't want to annoy you but I don't follow your point here.
This is my fault, as I can presume to know very little about Anglicanism outside of the UK.
I will say that Anglicanism outside of the UK and the Anglican Church in the UK can be so totally different that (didn't?) 60 or so Anglican Bishops held their own General Synod the other year.
I recall it was held 'in opposition' to the other one in England?
So I was wrong on reflection to insult 'Anglicans'.
Sorry for any possible offense caused (if you are an Anglican). On reflection, I recall very many 'real' Christian Anglicans in Africa for example.
Gentlemen, are we prepared to base a serious discussion on the assumptions of the MSM in particular and The world in general?
ReplyDeleteThe Church has been 'in decline' one way or another forever.
I still seek these 'empty Catholic Churches' in vain. I've worshiped across London. Never empty ALWAYS full. No seats a few minutes before the start.
In Manor Park we had to LOCK THE DOORS to keep people out because the crush threatened to become a hazard!
(Can you see that headline,'Catholic Church Turns Away Angry Worshipers...'You snooze You Lose' Warns Priest'.)
Potters Bar?
Packed every week.
Stratford (Olympic not 'Upon Avon')?
Standing room only.
Loughton, Essex?
Extra seats line the walls as the pews are full.
What about Leicester City? (my home)
Again, never attended a service that was not full. My mother tells me the Christmas service for children has never been so popular (in 40 years) so I need a little convincing that The Church faces any decline of any sort.
Never hear it from a Priest or Bishop....it's always given as an assumed fact without data.
Again, out in the Channel Islands there was a packed congregation and enthusiastic fully engaged candidates for Confirmation (100ish 12-14yrs) so little 'decline' to report there.
The liberal C. of E. is relevant only in so far as it's real decline demonstrates conclusively how popular Christianity is, and how unpopular remain heresy and cowardice.
Now I know the above issue was cultural Christianity but what could that ever mean if the MSM dominates?
All cultural post war assumptions are scattered to the wind.
I see a public realm (in the UK & US) that is fetid, spiritually dangerous and no place that Christianity should need to be.
When the 'modern world' really equates to 'what's on the television' then our enemies occupy ground that is shrinking and fracturing day by day.
Good.
They may be satisfied that Christianity has been banished but this is an empty victory that will (has) last(ed) only a generation.
I agree with our host that the culture that remains after our departure/ejection will be something that we can do without; I see zero reason for expecting ANY culture to take it's place though.
Instead, I see micro, 'multi' cultures in all their drab loneliness. Look at the cultural products of the USSR and laugh yourself sick.
Islamic cultural products and energy occupying the vacuum left behind?
Not if we are thinking of the same 'Islam'.
Paganism has a powerful current for the dispossessed yes.
However, the rise of football (soccer) seems to be effectively draining all the atavistic energy away from tribal identity.
It seems strange I know but there you are.
It could even be possible that our human craving for magic (the business end of paganism) is being satisfied by IT gadgets.
Without The Tribe and without it's magic spells paganism cannot ever become a 'movement'.
So what's left ?
Er....it begins with 'C'.
John Richardson
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ReplyDeleteRapid Library UK proxy