...i hear you saying it is wonderful to live in the bible belt, this is the first I'm hearing that minorities in an overly christian area are free to express themselves without fear of marginalization...You're certainly free to express yourself, in the bible belt, and elsewhere, with this exception: if you publicly pray or mention God at a school graduation ceremony, or you're a school employee who encourages students to ask questions about Darwin's theory, you are not free to express yourself. There is a real chance that an atheist or a 'liberal Christian' will drag you into federal court to shut you up.
I am not aware of any effort by Christians in the bible belt or elsewhere to deny others the right to freedom of speech or the right to free exercise of religion. If you are aware of the use of legal or physical force by Christians to do this, please provide the examples.
Atheists have repeatedly sued Christians in federal courts to deny them their rights to free expression.
On the issue of the right of "minorities in an overly christian area to express themselves without fear of marginalization":
Did you mean 'overtly christian area' rather than "overly christian area"? An amusing Freudian slip, from a 'liberal' Christian.
And your complaint about minorities 'right' to be free of marginalization is telling. The Constitution guarantees the right to freedom of speech and free expression of religion. The Declaration of Independence grounds that right in God. Minorities (i.e. atheists) are free to speak and to exercise their irreligious beliefs, and the local folks are free to disagree with them and 'marginalize' them if they choose to do so. It's a free country. Nobody has any right not to be 'marginalized'.
And here's a hint: if you don't want to be marginalized, stop taking your neighbors to court to shut them up.
... I would not have dreamed of visiting the rural areas of the bible belt where I hear stories that one is marginalized for the 'fault' of being a 'reader' (Dom Joly was almost beat up for reading a book in a cafeIsn't your statement bigotry, Nnoel?
And if you want to experience real marginalization, become a biologist and openly express reservations about the atheist/materialist foundation of Darwin's theory. Make sure you have tenure first.
p.p.s. I assume we are debating because you wish to engage, if I'm just disturbing your little world and would wish me to move along, thats ok too, love is the most important thing, the rest is just fun!
You are always welcome here. I genuinely appreciate your thoughtful comments (even though I disagree!). The repartee is a pleasure.
"I am not aware of any effort by Christians in the bible belt or elsewhere to deny others the right to freedom of speech or the right to free exercise of religion. If you are aware of the use of legal or physical force by Christians to do this, please provide the examples."ReplyDelete
- lol, I believe the only examples I need to show you would be every instance where a christian is sued. This is the fundamental difference I see in our points of view, you think getting sued is being persecuted, but I see the people doing the suing because they wish to be free!
To use an analogy, your standing on my foot, I sue to get you to remove yourself from my personal space, and you claim I am restricting your freedoms by not allowing you to stand on my foot! I don't mind how you stand, or what you do while you stand, just don't infringe on myself while you do so.
"if you publicly pray or mention God at a school graduation ceremony"
Lets get this straight, surely public pray is ok as long as your not enforcing others to join you? but if you insist of praying at a school graduation I would equate that to standing on my foot, and I do not want you in my personal space.
Can you devote an entire blog post to EXACTLY what you think is not allowed, or would get you sued, and which part of the law you are breaking when you do so? Cause if I'm honest, in every instance where I read about these things, the constitution is applied in a court of law and a thoughtful judge or whoever decides exactly as I would have expected, but then Christians get offended and start claiming that the thought police are watching them sleep, when in fact those same Christians have a LARGE amount of freedom, but your just not allowed to 'stand on other peoples feet' unless they specifically grant you permission. Letting them have the ability to 'remove others from their personal space' is important, cause one day someone may be on YOUR foot, and you'd be afraid to ask them to remove themselves.
As an aside, in my experience, those that accuse others of being this or that alot, are using doing so because that which they see in others is a large part of their life. I've never seen the word 'bigot' used as much as I have on this blog! (I first noticed this phenomenon ('pot calling kettle black') when politicians are so anti-gay and anti-gay-marriage that they almost always end up going on holiday with a male prostitute or having some illicit partners hidden away somewhere). Think on this, and try it out for yourself, notice what people accuse others of, and see if it manifests in them at all.
"Isn't your statement bigotry, Nnoel?"
- if I hear stories of people being physically assaulted because of the point of view they hold, I consider it wise to avoid those areas, just as it is wise to wear one's seat belt while driving or not to play outside in the lightning with a kite, I don't think it is bigotry. Also, my first part of the statement was me admitting I'd take your opinion under consideration, as it was the first good thing I'd heard thus far :-P
also, not a Christian, and what is 'Deliverance' ? lol.ReplyDelete
I thought you wrote that you were a "liberal Christian". Guess I'm wrong. Sorry.
Deliverance is a 1972 film based on a novel of the same name about a group of businessmen who visit rural Georgia. They encounter violent grotesque locals. It is a stereotypical slander of rural white southerners, who are depicted as mutant imbecilic violent perverts.
It's a nice synopsis of elitist bigotry about people who live in the bible-belt.
Think on this, and try it out for yourself, notice what people accuse others of, and see if it manifests in them at all.ReplyDelete
You should take your own advice, Nnoel.
Last things first,ReplyDelete
"what is 'Deliverance'"
Where have been living? a Cave? Maybe you're just young? 'Deliverance' is a seminal film title. Google it, or look up the trailer on Youtube.com.
Mike, I think 'Deliverance' is probably too scary. Judging by the use of metaphor, I think this is probably 'Footloose' PTSD.
He just wants to dance it out.
Okay... now about the feet/foot thing!
If you want your feet to be pretty and soft, you need to stay off them and keep them well soaked. Pedicures and oil/mud rubs may also be of use. If you intend to walk on them, you can expect to to get your toes stubbed, develop callouses on your pads, and get stinky and dirty feet. If you wish to be active on your feet it will get worse again.
But this is not just about feet. It is about YOU, Nnoel.
YOU are not guaranteed to be correct all the time, to be unstressed, or to be accepted and loved by your fellow man/woman. You are given your liberty to seek those states and attentions/affections. You are free to do so. So are Christians, Jews, Mormons, Muslims, Sikhs, and the other multitudes of people who believe in something.
What you are saying with your feet analogy is basically that you are intolerant of others beliefs. You see them expressing their ideas, at a venue such as a funeral, wedding, or high school grad as an invasion of your personal physical space - ie stomping on your feet. Because you feel part of a captive audience, you are being oppressed? Time to get those soft little feet out for a run!
Nnoel, nobody is treading on your feet by saying a prayer at kids graduation, just as you are not treading on theirs for not joining in the prayer. If you want to give a speech on your ideas of what motivated you, you will be allowed to. So should they!
Choose not to speak? Fine! But, just because some people are socially awkward and choose to remain silent, does not mean the religious rights of those who choose to speak should be stifled.
This is the part that gets me every time.
"f I hear stories of people being physically assaulted because of the point of view they hold, I consider it wise to avoid those areas, just as it is wise to wear one's seat belt while driving or not to play outside in the lightning with a kite, I don't think it is bigotry."
You actually think these rural folks walk about giving a damn about what you think or do? Not the crops, not the jobs of the day, not their son's baseball game, not the church bake sale, not their mother's cancer, nor the car payments - but the one thing on their minds, ALL of em, is BEATING your ATHEIST @$$!
I hear stories too. Of feral gangs, of home invasions, of near impotent police forces, of new and more sinister drugs, of grandchildren killing grandparents for money and toys, of slavery, of prostitution, of use of children in all of the above mentioned vices, of students massacring their classmates.. And these stories are not about the 'Bible belt', but about 'the City', and even the ivory towers of the 'suburbs'. These stories have newspaper articles, crime report numbers, and witness statements.
They are not urban legends, not just 'stories'.